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dstpt
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
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 Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:22 pm Post subject: Bach Bb - 3rd slide stoprod option |
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I got a new Bach 37* (lightweight body & bell) at ITG 2022 last week. Plays great…except I have always disliked the standard Bach Bb stoprod system. If your horn moves around a little during transit, then the alignment of the rod can get off, and you end up with that scratchy sound when kicking out the slide. Can I hear an “Amen?!”
Mine was already scratchy! So what do I do? One answer is to totally replace the system with a stop screw configuration. After all, I learned to do spot silver plating during the pandemic, so I could have a local brass tech unsolder the rod “holders” under the 3rd slide and then solder on the stop screw “mount” and rounded brass “nib” or “catch” on the top 3rd slide. We know this system, too. It’s probably more common than any these days. Orrr…
…I could use my fancy 1mm Elastic Bracelet String that I got from Amazon in 2017 for tying loops and connecting to all of my 3rd slides to prevent them from falling onto the tile in our house when I forget to tighten down the stop screw or nut on the stoprod! Yeah, that’s what I did! I have a new invention, and it’s super inexpensive and reliable. All of the naysayers out there will say, “But, but, but…the slide might still fall out.” Well, it might still fall out with any of these other expensive options, too. Ha!
For those of you needing a longer stoprod and just love that system, then you can buy one from many options. Or, you could switch over to a stop screw system, spending more to have all of that done. Or, you could order some 1mm Elastic Bracelet String and get all creative! I sent pictures to a brass tech today, who wrote back:
“Bahahaha duuuude no way, that’s awesome! 😂🤙”
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dinnv5oloy739g2/Bach%2037%2A-elastic%20string-01.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1b7wqrhkzkj9gfj/Bach%2037%2A-elastic%20string-02.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ratbwke4bpognz/Bach%2037%2A-elastic%20string-03.jpg?dl=0 |
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zaferis
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
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Location: Beavercreek, OH
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:58 am Post subject: |
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With a gentle touch one can straighten the original rod and "Ta-Dah", no scratchy sound.. & if you use both nuts tightened snuggly against each other they neither vibrate nor fall off..
Been a Bach 37 player since 1980, I might have lost one nut and have never had an issue of the threads rubbing on the guide post.
A modern elegant solution:
https://osmun.com/extended-stop-rod-for-bach-trumpets/
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jengstrom
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Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 427
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Ditto.
And I retrofitted mine with a longer stoprod so I could play the intro to Carmen. No scratching.
Besides, how does it get bent in transit if it’s in its case?
John
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dstpt
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: | With a gentle touch one can straighten the original rod and "Ta-Dah", no scratchy sound.. & if you use both nuts tightened snuggly against each other they neither vibrate nor fall off..
Been a Bach 37 player since 1980, I might have lost one nut and have never had an issue of the threads rubbing on the guide post.
A modern elegant solution:
https://osmun.com/extended-stop-rod-for-bach-trumpets/ |
Yes, I was able to straighten the stoprod within a few seconds after getting the horn home, but I have had some that were really messed up (from previous owners), and it required me taking those horns to a brass technician to fix...and they had problems as well fixing them. As for the stop nuts, yes, I've also known since my HS days to keep them together or they could vibrate and fall off. And I have an extended "F" stoprod on another Bach, but why have to deal with any of this?! As crazy as it seems, next to having a stop screw system, I'd much rather use my elastic string. In fact I've even had stop screws that have vibrated loose during play, only to discover it after the 3rd slide has hit the floor. For that, of course, we could use a thicker grease on the screw threads or a light version of JB Weld or the like. At least those are some of the options I've seen brass techs use.
| jengstrom wrote: | Ditto.
And I retrofitted mine with a longer stoprod so I could play the intro to Carmen. No scratching.
Besides, how does it get bent in transit if it’s in its case?
John |
I was only there on Wednesday of last week. I did the $$ deal with a local music store on Thursday, and the horn was brought back to me via a friend who stayed a couple of extra days. I got it from him on Saturday. All I know is, from that Wednesday morning until Saturday afternoon when I got it home, that stoprod was misaligned. I presume it happened either from handling at the show or in transit in the case. Horns can shift some in a case, and that stoprod position is not one that is "locked in." I've talked to brass techs through the years who have had to straighten them many times for players and students.
Others have complained about the Bach stoprod in previous threads. I wonder if the stoprod system of Bach is so great, why have other builders/companies not modeled after it? They certainly have modeled many other aspects of the Bach build for decades. I also wonder why did Bach use a stop screw system on their newer (10+ years?) Commercial line? Was it all about looks, that, the 2nd slide direction, and the Amado water key change? Maybe so.
Last edited by dstpt on Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:49 am Post subject: |
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While I have no doubt that dstpt has issues with Bach’s stop rod implementation, I have had basically no issues with the rod myself. Like Zaferis I have played Bachs for years, since 1972 for me.
I use a drop of locktite blue after cleaning and don’t lose screws.
One piece of advice that used to be given on here about retaining your nuts is to grab your nuts and give them a good twist. |
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Miketpt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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Location: Seattle, Washington USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Just tried several options on my new 37 and all play different/have different resistance. For longer throw options the Bach artisan longer stop in brass with two nuts worked the best for me.
Mike |
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RETrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| dstpt wrote: |
Others have complained about the Bach stoprod in previous threads. I wonder if the stoprod system of Bach is so great, why have other builders/companies not modeled after it? They certainly have modeled many other aspects of the Bach build for decades. I also wonder why did Bach used a stop screw system on their newer (10+ years?) Commercial line? Was it all about looks, that, the 2nd slide direction, and the Amado water key change? Maybe so. |
First of all, I agree that these can get bent easily and when they do, it's annoying or worse.
Second, I like your idea, though I would probably tie end around the brace between the upper and lower middle section and not to the knob of the dump slide. No chance of it slipping and easier to empty the water, IMO.
That said, there are some points I'd like to address in the quoted section.
Vincent Bach (the person) didn't originate the stop rod design. It was the technology of the day. I have a 1923 King Liberty with a stop rod and have seen similarly aged and older Bessons with stop rods. I believe (but could be wrong) that the inverted third slide ring with the rod on top is actually referred to as a "Besson System." Vincent Bach (the company) is deeply connected to its tradition and founder so some design elements, perhaps deemed flawed by some, remain.
For modern horns, Sonare, B&S, Benge, King, and likely others that I am not thinking of at the moment, use stop rods.
As for the changes for the Bach Commercial line, those were designed to eliminate as much weight as possible and cater to a specific clientele. Since this was a new model, breaking some traditions seems to have been viewed as acceptable by the company. Those horns use a one piece third slide (no dump slide) so a water key was required and the stop pin was brought over from the C trumpet models (which Bach has used since at least the Mt. Vernon days). Amaods are "modern" and, again, lighter and can also help with notes where the nodal point may otherwise land on the cork (which is a bigger issue in the upper register).
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Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| RETrumpet wrote: | | ...Second, I like your idea, though I would probably tie end around the brace between the upper and lower middle section and not to the knob of the dump slide. No chance of it slipping and easier to empty the water, IMO.... |
Thanks for the ideas. Actually, because it's elastic string, it stretches enough so that I don't have to disconnect the string to pull the entire 3rd slide out to dump water. The looped string in the three pictures was one that I already had made for another horn. I intend to make another one with a smaller loop for the pull knob on the 3rd dump slide to where it won't slip off at all. The loop will be small enough that I'd have to stretch the string to make the loop big enough to slip off. With the present one, I doubt it would come off as is, but just to be extra safe, I'll be making another. Besides, if I was to wrap the string around one of the two braces between the 3rd slide tubes, how would I connect it to another part of the instrument without having to tie it? This would mean having to cut the string and creating another string when it comes time to clean the horn. One version was to wrap it around the bottom of the 3rd valve casing, but it felt too loose and would certainly come off at some point when I'm least expecting it. To be clear, the elastic string has loops at both ends.
And oh, yes, I've heard stories about Bach higher-ups feeling the need to hang on to as much of the original designs as possible...but developments will happen in the industry, and they'll have to make some decisions, right? |
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LittleRusty
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Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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It might be possible to design a 3D-printable stop that would work.
It could be designed to have minor bumps to retain the slide retracted and indicate the appropriate distance for C#, D and F. Just enough to feel, but not enough to hinder fast action. |
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homebilly
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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i've been using elastic for years
it's great on Ambassadors
i have round as well as flat in several sizes and colors
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ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
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Crazy Finn
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:23 am Post subject: |
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I might have to barrow something like this.
Where did you get the material for the "string".
I've got an old LA Benge that was missing most of the stop rod assembly when I bought it. When I worked at a music shop that had a repair facility, they ordered the requisite parts for me and eventually installed it.
Sadly, I didn't like how it played when it had the stop rod in. Also, keeping it aligned was a nightmare as it's not soldered or held in by a screw, it's just threaded in.
So, I ditched it, and went back to how it was (though at least I have the parts, now). Plays much better. However, I haven't come up with a good slide stop solution.
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dstpt
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | I might have to barrow something like this.
Where did you get the material for the "string". |
Do a search on Amazon for: 1mm Elastic Bracelet String.
The one spool I've been using since 2017 is made by "peaknip."
I have tried different thicknesses and have used other colors. The 1mm seems to be the best. If I recall correctly, the 0.5mm was more unwieldy to form the loops with the string being so thin. Anything thicker is, well, just too thick and clumsy. Maybe you'll get different results with other thicknesses.
This one spool has lasted me five years, and I've used it on many, many trumpets on this horn safari. None of the ones I've made have snapped or broken in any way, and none of the loops have come undone. I think it would require a lot of strength to actually cause this string to break, certainly more than what we'd ever experience in handling one of our instruments.
The coating on this clear, elastic string is easy to clean, btw. The colored fabric versions will pick up grease and oil from slides and not be as easy to clean, but it's so inexpensive to replace, your main frustration is the little bit of time to form a new one...but that gives you another opportunity to practice making them!
It takes a little muscle to tighten knots when forming loops, so that the string won't come undone. Patience and determination are key. It might be challenging for those with large fingers to where pliers or strong tweezers might help. Once you do get a knot tightened down, you won't have to worry about it coming undone and don't even think about undoing it; it would basically be impossible, even if you used the tip of an ice pick to try to pry the knot loose. The clear elastic is almost imperceptible even by others in a section. It takes some practice to get the loops the right size, and if you do loops at both ends (like all of mine), getting the right length can be challenging at first. I'll try to post a video today of how I do this.
Oh, and to set the record straight, I guess I should have consistently used these spellings:
stop rod (two words, not one..my bad, even in the title of the thread!)
stop screw (two words, not one...I think I did this one correctly) |
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homebilly
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:46 am Post subject: |
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i should have stated that i don;t use my elastic in the same way as in the photos
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ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
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http://highdefinitionbigband.com
Last edited by homebilly on Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| homebilly wrote: | | i should have stated that i don;t use my elastic in the same way as in the photos |
Oh, do tell! I've configured mine a lot of different ways, never quite satisfied and always trying something new. |
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homebilly
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:53 am Post subject: |
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i should have also said that it isn't the same stuff that you are using either
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ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| homebilly wrote: | | i should have also said that it isn't the same stuff that you are using either |
Ah, nice. Is it easy to remove your 3rd slide with that setup? (What is the blue, btw? A special tape to protect the slides?) |
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homebilly
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:05 am Post subject: |
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it's really easy. i just pull the slide out and stretch the elastic
it's cool because it springs the slide back to the closed position
i do have to change it out about once a year or when the elastic gets too stretched out
the tape is just there for a mouthpiece that i sometimes have to
have wrapped with tape for it to fit 
both are part of my Ghetto Gear year round collection
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ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| homebilly wrote: | | ...both are part of my Ghetto Gear year round collection |
Are these available at Macy's?! Off to the mall I go! |
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RandyTX
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:48 am Post subject: |
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During a replating trip, I had the stock Bach stop-rod on my old 37 changed out for an extended one for that 'Low F' that I've needed maybe once since having it done maybe a dozen years ago. Not sure I'd bother again, but maybe something worth considering?
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dstpt
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| RandyTX wrote: | | During a replating trip, I had the stock Bach stop-rod on my old 37 changed out for an extended one for that 'Low F' that I've needed maybe once since having it done maybe a dozen years ago. Not sure I'd bother again, but maybe something worth considering? |
Right, the low F extension rod was also mentioned above in the thread. I definitely appreciate having that extra length, and I utilize it every day, practicing down to low F with scales and arpeggios. But I agree, if you don't use it, then it wouldn't be worth going that route the next time.
Here's the video I mentioned earlier today. I apologize that it is not the best quality of presentation, showing every important angle (and glare-free!), but hopefully, you can get the gist.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4pygqln13iu2p52/Bach%203rd%20slide%20stop%20rod%20elastic%20string%20video.MOV?dl=0 |
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