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Nicholas1090 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Aug 2011 Posts: 45
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: Why is Harry James often not spoken of? |
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He is one of the greatest players to exist but it seems to me that most people hardly know him or never talk about him and prefer people like Louis Armstrong over him. I mean how can this be? Just listen to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNWxwvIwC-Q |
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Larry Smithee Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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I love Harry too but you're giving the impression that Pops was just a minor figure next to Harry James. Is that right?
Larry |
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Nicholas1090 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Aug 2011 Posts: 45
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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What I'm saying is harry was such a better player than satchmo and yet so little attention is given to harry. And not just satchmo in particular but all the other players too. Hell, I hear about Chet Baker more than harry. Why is this? |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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How does one often not speak of? That doesn't make sense. How would you know if someone is often not speaking of Harry James, and not someone else? _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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Nicholas1090 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Aug 2011 Posts: 45
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Look, you get the idea OK. He is almost never mentioned and always brushed aside even though he was such a great player. Players with less ability are idolized and talked about more than him. I just wanted to know if there was a reason for this. |
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JakeMN Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 Posts: 65 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Louis was also a vocalist. I'm not sure if Harry was or not, not that I know of, but then again I haven't studied him as I have Louis. I believe that the general population(non-musicians) more easily relate to lyrics than instrumental pieces. I believe that Louis has a different audience in a way. You are much more likely to hear him on the radio(What a Wonderful World, Hello Dolly, etc), but I have never heard Harry on the radio. I just believe that, these days anyway, Louis is better exposed to this new generation of players. These are just some thoughts/guesses that I have come up with I guess. I wish Harry James was more widely known. Great player and I love his sound! |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1894
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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In his heyday Harry James was very well known, and might have been more popular than Louis Armstrong. He was one of the greatest trumpet players ever, no doubt about it. His music was very stylized, and became unpopular sometime after WW2. He played in different musical genres then, and even flirted with bebop. I don't think that he is listened to much today just because the types of music he used to play aren't listened to much. Louis Armstrongs music has a universal appeal that Harry's doesn't have. By the way, I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate Louis's trumpet playing. He made some truly amazing recordings (in a virtuoso trumpet sense) through the 1930's. I think that Harry and Louis both had a lot of respect for each other, and might have been friends. |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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I think that Harry played in a period that was right when "media" was beginning to be a factor in opinions. "Media" found Harry's life style to be scandalous and made a big thing out of it.
I grew up in the 50's and have clear memories of my parents talking about how often Harry managed to make the scandal side of the "society" pages.
He really was a sort of model for the kind of trumpet player that you didn't want your daughter to date.
I suspect that, given the prudishness of that period, Harry's trumpet playing took second stand to relationships with alcohol and women in the public eye And, as a result, his overall reputation for good trumpet work was just never established with the baby boomers.
Record publishers didn't do re-releases of his singles hits as lps; music publishers didn't print transcriptions of his solos because parents wouldn't buy them for their kids.
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Also you can't discount the lasting effect that Louis has had on jazz as a whole vs Harry's contributions. Harry James definitely attracted many young people to the trumpet - Miles himself credits Harry James as one of his early influences - but Harry's style was not innovative and he spawned no particular school to carry his torch forward.
By contrast, Pops is the wellspring of jazz trumpet, who's influence is profound, not only to trumpet players, but to the entire field of jazz, if not with residual influences in the field on entertainment, in general. And, as noted above, he was an internationally known and beloved entertainer, which Harry was not, and that has also stood the test of time.
No doubt Harry James was a terrific player. IMO he hasn't gotten the credit that he's due. I believe that some of his big bands in the "post-big band" years were among the best ever and some of his solos were dead on the mark in this era, which is usually given short shrift my musical historians and the public in general. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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Mike Sailors Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1839 Location: Austin/New York City
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Nicholas1090 wrote: | What I'm saying is harry was such a better player than satchmo and yet so little attention is given to harry. And not just satchmo in particular but all the other players too. Hell, I hear about Chet Baker more than harry. Why is this? |
Louis Armstrong pioneered jazz improvisation, scat singing and rhythmic and harmonic complexity and a whole host of other aspects that define jazz while also pushing the boundaries of trumpet performance.
Harry James was a great trumpet player and entertainer. That's it. There's absolutely no comparison in my opinion. Harry James couldn't touch Louis Armstong on his worst day on a blues. _________________ www.mikesailors.com
Last edited by Mike Sailors on Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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solo soprano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Harry was known among musicians for his astonishing technique and for having a superior tone. People will like trumpet players, but they will love a singer. Harry and Louis are the among the most famous trumpeters of the 20th century.
Last edited by solo soprano on Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:45 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Mike Sailors Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1839 Location: Austin/New York City
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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What you're really saying is that Harry James had more "chops". Trumpet players are the only people who think this way. _________________ www.mikesailors.com |
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MikeyMike Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2007 Posts: 1680
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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tommy t. wrote: |
I suspect that, given the prudishness of that period, Harry's trumpet playing took second stand to relationships with alcohol and women in the public eye And, as a result, his overall reputation for good trumpet work was just never established with the baby boomers.
Tommy T. |
Gotta disagree with you on this one, Tommy. I've never seen a boomer shy away from buying records on account of some musician's leg-shakin, groupie-chasin, acid-droppin, pot-smokin, hooch-guzzlin, pill-poppin, guitar-gnawin or bat-chompin antics. Au contraire...
Harry was great, but his style was one which worked very well in its day but had little appeal after that. Elegance in music, film and literature gave way to the hip, cool, and rebellious. For those and other reasons, Harry disappeared with the big bands while Lewis is remembered as a seminal innovator. _________________ Ahh... that old case smell. |
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Spit valve Regular Member
Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 86 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Harry was very popular in his time. I'd bet that he made more money than any other trumpet player ever.
I love his sound, but some people find him schmaltzy. Then again, when I was first starting the trumpet he was the most popular trumpet player by far. _________________ Trumpets: 1952 Conn 22B NYS, 1972 Conn 6B Victor
Cornet: 1918 Conn 81A Victor New Wonder
Flugelhorn: Jean Baptiste
The trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. |
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musicalmason1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 Posts: 731 Location: Pa
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hey man, you think Harry James is the best ever and deserves more recognition. That's cool. That is your opinion and you are most certainly welcomed to it. I've got nothing but respect for HJ, he was a great player. No doubt. That being said, I prefer guys like Chet and Louis because I don't listen to music to marvel at a guys chops. I listen to music because it moves me and evokes an emotional reaction within me. If there is chops on top of that, great. Guys like Chet and Louis (and many others) have moved me. I have listened to some Harry James, and I can't say I've ever been emotionally moved by his music. Maybe I should listen to more of him, and I will try to. I'm just saying, for me, it's about the music and the emotion, not the chops. That is why I think Louis and Chet get more recognition. More relate ability outside the world of trumpeting. |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5234 Location: ca.
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Harry was a monster trumpet player, Louis was a medium for music. I love Harry, saw him twice, but Louis was music, he just used the trumpet and his voice to let it out, he could make you hear notes he didn't play, he was IT. Know Louis, know music, no Louis, no music......... _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6210
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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As for students, Harry James inspired a lot of followers.
I find, at times, that Doc Severinsen's playing resembles Harry James in the singing quality of the tone. |
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dmb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2002 Posts: 1305 Location: Anderson, IN
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | As for students, Harry James inspired a lot of followers.
I find, at times, that Doc Severinsen's playing resembles Harry James in the singing quality of the tone. |
I recall that Doc listed Harry as his biggest influence for sound and technique. _________________ Dan Burton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWuX9zPJWyY
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2599
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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dmb wrote: | etc-etc wrote: | As for students, Harry James inspired a lot of followers.
I find, at times, that Doc Severinsen's playing resembles Harry James in the singing quality of the tone. |
I recall that Doc listed Harry as his biggest influence for sound and technique. |
I heard Doc on his recent tour and it was very apparent that Harry James was a big influence on Doc, there were a lot of stylistic similarities. Louis Armstrong must have been a significant influence on Doc, too, because there were subtle stylistic similarities there also.
One of the posters above said Harry James probably made more money for his trumpet playing than any trumpet player in history. I don't think that's even close to accurate. Isn't Herb Alpert, by far, the #1 moneymaking trumpet player of all time? _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:41 am Post subject: |
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MikeyMike wrote: | tommy t. wrote: |
I suspect that, given the prudishness of that period, Harry's trumpet playing took second stand to relationships with alcohol and women in the public eye And, as a result, his overall reputation for good trumpet work was just never established with the baby boomers.
Tommy T. |
Gotta disagree with you on this one, Tommy. I've never seen a boomer shy away from buying records on account of some musician's leg-shakin, groupie-chasin, acid-droppin, pot-smokin, hooch-guzzlin, pill-poppin, guitar-gnawin or bat-chompin antics. Au contraire...
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I think that we are probably in pretty close agreement. My statement was not very clear -- I didn't mean that the boomers shied away from Harry. I meant that they were not exposed to Harry in part because the prior generation of taste-setters didn't keep his music alive and available.
And then there was Elvis and then the British Invasion -- dance bands ceased to exist along with the big dance halls and lyrical trumpets that could soar over the Basie or Ellington groups weren't on the "must hear" for most of my classmates.
(I'm a war baby -- just pre-boom -- and my father played trumpet in dance bands as a hobby. Even so, my first three jazz records were Louis, Dizzy and Miles, bought around 56 or 57 -- I don't believe that I own a Harry record.) _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
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