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Mauri Regular Member
Joined: 15 May 2022 Posts: 45
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 4:45 am Post subject: Teeth forward |
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I'm looking for someone with the same flaw (?) As me, to share experiences on mouthpieces.
I have the two upper incisors forward. Playing a Bach 3C I find my lips sore. The edge of the mouthpiece and the forward teeth squeeze the upper lip too much, like scissors.
I am trying various mouthpieces with a more rounded edge. Like the DW american classic 5C and things look better. Also the he Yamaha Bobby Shew Jazz appears to be more rounded than the Bach. Maybe with a rounded edge I lose in the attacks?!. Does anyone have the same problem as me? How did you fix it? |
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Notlem Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2021 Posts: 127
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 8:18 am Post subject: |
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I don't fully follow, the front four teeth I think are called incisors. might matter more which one are bugging you.
I would think a lot of people have some kind of overbite, where the front incisors are in front of the lower ones when the teeth are clentched.
I know I have a overbite, slight wedge forward of the upper incisors. Brining my lower jaw forward to align the teeth when I play helps.
However, that does not fix the fact that one tooth seems to protrudes a little more than the other. I have a scar on my lip where that tooth is.
At the end of the day, my mouthpiece placement was dictated by that tooth and ended up sliding my mouthpiece down. That 50/50 placement I am not sure is actually as super common as one would think.
I also seem to have the same problem with a Bach 3c feeling like its cutting in to the upper lip. I don't recall any of my other mouthpieces doing this to me.
Your probably gonna get a ton of Mouthpiece advice. Take it all with a grain of salt.
The initial change in attacks when changing mouthpieces, to me, have a lot more to do with the inner bit of the mouthpiece and the weight on the end.
At the end of the day, while experimentation may be needed, a good teacher should be able to guid you though a mouthpiece change vs placement. I would also assume, most teachers, like most trumpet players have a drawer full of mouthpieces to test with.
-marc |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3380 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Are you making any conscious use of rim pressure with your lower lip and teeth? I think that learning how to use and control lower lip rim pressure is often overlooked by many players.
Do you have any teeth were the edge of the tooth is a small 'pressure point' against the inside of your lip? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Mauri Regular Member
Joined: 15 May 2022 Posts: 45
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Yes, the two upper central teeth are forward. With the mouthpiece placed against the lips it becomes a knife, a kind of scissor. With a Bach 3C after a while it is impossible for me to play.
Impossible to go up with the notes.
I repeat: I am trying mouthpieces with a more rounded edge like DW 5C, yamaha Bobby Shew Jazz |
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Notlem Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2021 Posts: 127
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 11:56 am Post subject: |
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I mis-quoted myself... I had to slide the mouthpiece up, not down...
I believe that most of my top incisors seem to be in the cup, the clamp is where my still on my top teeth just below the gums it seems. |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1882 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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More information is always a plus.
Are you a Jr. High beginner or have you been playing a few years and are just trying to find a better mouthpiece?
My front two teeth angle in so the outer edges caused cuts to the inside of my lip. I also played with an over bite.
1. If you play with an overbite, you need to try, over a period of time to get your lower jaw more forward. This is tough.
2. Rim selection is very important. A rounder inner rim might help but you probably need to either go larger or smaller in your mouthpiece size so that your lip is not pressed between the mouthpiece inner bite and any edges of your teeth.
For me, a rim that has the high point closer to the outside of the rim made all of the difference.
I use the Neill Sanders rim but it is out of production and my mouthpieces have to be custom made.
The only affordable stock mouthpiece that comes close is the Schilke 15C4. You can look up the rim shapes here and see what I'm talking about.
https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/
Different approach - Wedge mouthpieces. The plastic ones are over $100. Pressure is transferred to the top and bottom of the lip through a unique contour.
A good teacher (face to face) might be able to zero on the problem in a few minutes. Sorry - all we can do is guess. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8939 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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I used to have turned teeth that presented a sharpness to the mouthpiece resulting in lip damage. My dentist just gently dulled the sharpness and it helped a lot.
In my 50s I had orthodonture and I kind of wish I had done so much sooner. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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bert1962 New Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2022 Posts: 2 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Teeth forward |
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Mauri wrote: | I'm looking for someone with the same flaw (?) As me, to share experiences on mouthpieces.
I have the two upper incisors forward. Playing a Bach 3C I find my lips sore. The edge of the mouthpiece and the forward teeth squeeze the upper lip too much, like scissors.
I am trying various mouthpieces with a more rounded edge. Like the DW american classic 5C and things look better. Also the he Yamaha Bobby Shew Jazz appears to be more rounded than the Bach. Maybe with a rounded edge I lose in the attacks?!. Does anyone have the same problem as me? How did you fix it? |
Hi, Mauri, did you try Schilke 14 or 15 . It has a smoother edge . Am tryng with some of students and have some good results. |
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Mauri Regular Member
Joined: 15 May 2022 Posts: 45
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Teeth forward |
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bert1962 wrote: | Mauri wrote: | I'm looking for someone with the same flaw (?) As me, to share experiences on mouthpieces.
I have the two upper incisors forward. Playing a Bach 3C I find my lips sore. The edge of the mouthpiece and the forward teeth squeeze the upper lip too much, like scissors.
I am trying various mouthpieces with a more rounded edge. Like the DW american classic 5C and things look better. Also the he Yamaha Bobby Shew Jazz appears to be more rounded than the Bach. Maybe with a rounded edge I lose in the attacks?!. Does anyone have the same problem as me? How did you fix it? |
Hi, Mauri, did you try Schilke 14 or 15 . It has a smoother edge . Am tryng with some of students and have some good results. |
I bought a 14 ... let's see how it works |
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Mauri Regular Member
Joined: 15 May 2022 Posts: 45
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Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:38 am Post subject: |
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The Schilke 14 does not work. The Yamaha Bobby Shew Jazz seems to work very well, the pressure with this mouthpiece is much less. The high notes come out with little effort and little pressure and the low notes have good texture. At the moment I have no particular marks on my lips and no pain.
It seems to be good for me. Among other things, the sound seems to me even better than the Bach 3C. Less shrill, more centered.
Anyway, thank you all for the advice. |
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Mauri Regular Member
Joined: 15 May 2022 Posts: 45
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Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:32 am Post subject: |
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One question, I'm trying to figure out if the Yamaha Bobby Shew Jazz can be my mouthpiece. From the comparator and the posts I understand that it should be brighter than the Modern Bach 3C. But it looks darker to me! Can I ask you your impressions about it? Thank you |
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Notlem Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2021 Posts: 127
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Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Mauri wrote: | One question, I'm trying to figure out if the Yamaha Bobby Shew Jazz can be my mouthpiece. From the comparator and the posts I understand that it should be brighter than the Modern Bach 3C. But it looks darker to me! Can I ask you your impressions about it? Thank you |
The vincad scan of each show the Bach 3C as having a slightly larger cup.
Based on that I’d assume the shew jazz just a hair brighter. Wonder if that mouthpiece was just based off an old 3C he had. Most artist pieces seemed to based on something they already use… back in the days picking up 2 identical 3C’s was a low probability, but now we have CNC machines!
Bigger/deeper/darker sound vs smaller/bright/compact sound to me is controlled via cup volume, be it diameter or depth or both. To me I think darkest= flugelhorn and brightest = piccolo trumpet.
Weight or weight distribution changes to a blank can alter core sound versus overtones. More weight or cocentrated weight at specific spots can remove overtones and add some core to your sound.
Small throats versus large throats: the larger it gets the more air can go though which increases dynamics at a cost of air efficiency, when too open, some get that airy sound that’s not desirable.
Backbores to me change resistance of air pressure, smaller ones have more resistance , larger have less. The larger ones seem to open up the dynamics a bit as well.
This is why you see common combinations… all around is middle of the road, big symphonic sound is bigger cup and backbone, screamer that needs to cut through everyone probably has a small cup and tight backbore.
At the end of the day, every change comes at a cost of something else, so we usually find something we are comfortable with, in your case for your tooth placement, and just move forward. Eventually you get use to it and lock in to its potential, because every time you switch, you have to relearn all those micro adjustments.
-marc |
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