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Nitrotech New Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2013 Posts: 8 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:00 pm Post subject: When does "Early Elkhart" just become "Elkhar |
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Hello,
Maybe this simple question was answered in other forums. I've been searching them and found out a lot of info about my Bach 37 from '72 or' 73 (serial # 87821). Question is when does a Bach go from being "Early Elkhart" to just plain Elkhart?
I'm understanding more and more about the design differences through the years after 1965, just curious as what the consensus was for the terminology. |
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JoeLoeffler Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 243
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Early Elkhart is 30k-50k. Sorry. |
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Nitrotech New Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2013 Posts: 8 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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JoeLoeffler wrote: | Early Elkhart is 30k-50k. Sorry. |
So up to around 1970. Thank you for the answer. I wasn't trying to label my horn specifically. Just trying to satisfy my curiosity. I bought mine spur of the moment. I was going over past forum posts to try to learn more about it. Found nice rabbit holes talking about valve casing construction, bell wire etc. Just never a specific serial number or date for "Early Elkhart" |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 652
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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I consider early Elkhart to end around SN 100,000. When Bach switched to one-piece valve casings, the instruments became markedly different from their predecessors made in Mt Vernon and the early Elkhart period. |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 692 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Goby wrote: | I consider early Elkhart to end around SN 100,000. When Bach switched to one-piece valve casings, the instruments became markedly different from their predecessors made in Mt Vernon and the early Elkhart period. |
+1! _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:41 am Post subject: |
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"Early Elkhart" begins in 1965 with several factors:
- Bell standard weight goes from .020" to .025"
- Bell seam is moved to align with the bell brace ("side seamed")
- Bell rim wire is changed from brass to steel
- Manufacturing moves from Mt. Vernon to Main Street in Elkhart
- (Two piece valve casings continue as before)
The side-seamed bell went away around 68,000 (ca. 1972/3)
The valve casings changed to 2-piece between 100,000 and 110,000 (ca. 1974/5)
Manufacturing relocated to the Industrial Drive facility in the mid-70's and some facets remained into the 1980s.
The bell rim wire reverted to brass somewhere in the mid-400,000s (ca 1990s)
The 180 series casings remain 1-piece to the present day
The use of 0.025" as standard bell stock continues
So there is no real line in the sand. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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dr-pepp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 541 Location: Austin TX
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:15 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
The side-seamed bell went away around 68,000 (ca. 1972/3)
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Ron, did the change from the side-seamed bell coincide with removal of CORPORATION from the bell hallmark stamp? _________________ Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com |
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_Daff Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:49 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | So there is no real line in the sand. |
Having owned numerous Strads built between 1937 and 1970, and having contemplated the history and chatter about the Early Elkharts for a good while, I would offer that 'general consensus' has been that Early Elkharts were made from 1965-1970, serial numbers roughly 30,000 through 50,000.
I believe it's fair to consider not only the manufacturing specifications, but the era and craftsman on the scene. Who were the folks in 1965 'showing the boys in NY how to build a Strad'? Was there any such sense of pride and/or competition? Was the energy in the factory different? Were the folks in Mt. Vernon down in the dumps knowing about the looming move to Elkhart possibly affecting their work products? Were the folks in Elkhart a more skilled crowd than those in Mt. Vernon? How long was that crowd in the 1965 Elkhart plant around before retiring or moving on?
As in any craft or hand construction of anything, it's about the people possibly as much or more than about the materials and methods employed. That factor, along with 'era' should most certainly be considered within the 'mystique' of the Early Elkhart Strads.
The term 'early' means 'near the beginning of a period of time'. The Elkhart era spans from 1965 to today, roughly 57 years. It would be a stretch to consider the 1990's, 25-35 years deep into the move to Elkhart, as 'early' in the Elkhart era.
An analogy, Corvettes have been made since 1953. I would consider the early era as 1953-1967, the first two generations.
Okay, I'll go crawl back into my cave, lol.
.
Last edited by _Daff on Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:08 am Post subject: |
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dr-pepp wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
The side-seamed bell went away around 68,000 (ca. 1972/3)
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Ron, did the change from the side-seamed bell coincide with removal of CORPORATION from the bell hallmark stamp? |
That is one detail I have not chased. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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_Daff Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:14 am Post subject: |
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dr-pepp wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
The side-seamed bell went away around 68,000 (ca. 1972/3)
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Ron, did the change from the side-seamed bell coincide with removal of CORPORATION from the bell hallmark stamp? |
Hi Clay, have followed this for many moon and have yet to see a side seem bell sans the CORPORATION marking
. |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 992 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Goby wrote: | I consider early Elkhart to end around SN 100,000. When Bach switched to one-piece valve casings, the instruments became markedly different from their predecessors made in Mt Vernon and the early Elkhart period. |
So what about side seam bell and valve stamps? That’s too significant of a change. Early Elkhart is pre 1970, 50,000. It’s not just the valve casings, it’s the whole package. _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Thread killer. |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 992 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:44 am Post subject: |
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_Daff wrote: | dr-pepp wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
The side-seamed bell went away around 68,000 (ca. 1972/3)
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Ron, did the change from the side-seamed bell coincide with removal of CORPORATION from the bell hallmark stamp? |
Hi Clay, have followed this for many moon and have yet to see a side seem bell sans the CORPORATION marking
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No, there are tons of corporation Bells made in the 70s that are not side seams. _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Thread killer. |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 992 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Here’s the thing; there’s no era of Bach that remained consistent for too long; all throughout the history of the company there have been so many changes. For example, the New York horns were all over the place in every aspect. Mt. Vernon had at least 3 different designs. And Elkhart as you can see, also had many changes.
We can nitpick about nomenclature, but really it comes down to each individual horn. I have 3 true early Elkhart horns that all play better for me than other horns. You just have to find what you like. _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Thread killer. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:50 am Post subject: |
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kramergfy wrote: | Goby wrote: | I consider early Elkhart to end around SN 100,000. When Bach switched to one-piece valve casings, the instruments became markedly different from their predecessors made in Mt Vernon and the early Elkhart period. |
So what about side seam bell and valve stamps? That’s too significant of a change. Early Elkhart is pre 1970, 50,000. It’s not just the valve casings, it’s the whole package. |
Pre-1970? That's a hard line. Virtually nothing changed at the end of 1969.
These thoughts about the staff are misguided. Few employees were willing to uproot and move from Mt. Vernon to the middle of nowhere. The 1965 staff came from those who had apprenticed at other Elkhart firms. Yes, some of the small NY crew came to Elkhart to train and supervise, but the bulk of the more experienced at Elkhart in 1965 were those already on pension from another maker, not Mt. Vernon Bach employees.
Consequently, its not like a large number of experienced employees abruptly left before 1970. Or before 1974. This was a much larger staff than Mt. Vernon to begin with - and the 180 had only been built in NY for a couple years anyway. The staff of 1976 was the staff of 1966 for the most part, just with more experience and an ongoing reimagining of product design. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:54 am Post subject: |
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kramergfy wrote: | Here’s the thing; there’s no era of Bach that remained consistent for too long; all throughout the history of the company there have been so many changes. For example, the New York horns were all over the place in every aspect. Mt. Vernon had at least 3 different designs. And Elkhart as you can see, also had many changes. |
This reality is precisely why I undertook the effort to learn from Roy and others enough to understand Bach beyond the "NY, Mt. Vernon, Early & Elkhart" buckets. That pursuit of understanding is what created Vincent Bach and His Trumpets. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 992 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:02 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | kramergfy wrote: | Goby wrote: | I consider early Elkhart to end around SN 100,000. When Bach switched to one-piece valve casings, the instruments became markedly different from their predecessors made in Mt Vernon and the early Elkhart period. |
So what about side seam bell and valve stamps? That’s too significant of a change. Early Elkhart is pre 1970, 50,000. It’s not just the valve casings, it’s the whole package. |
Pre-1970? That's a hard line. Virtually nothing changed at the end of 1969.
These thoughts about the staff are misguided. Few employees were willing to uproot and move from Mt. Vernon to the middle of nowhere. The 1965 staff came from those who had apprenticed at other Elkhart firms. Yes, some of the small NY crew came to Elkhart to train and supervise, but the bulk of the more experienced at Elkhart in 1965 were those already on pension from another maker, not Mt. Vernon Bach employees.
Consequently, its not like a large number of experienced employees abruptly left before 1970. Or before 1974. This was a much larger staff than Mt. Vernon to begin with - and the 180 had only been built in NY for a couple years anyway. The staff of 1976 was the staff of 1966 for the most part, just with more experience and an ongoing reimagining of product design. |
This is the year when they stopped stamping the serial number on the valve pistons. Is it a big deal? Maybe not. But it’s a change, and is important to know if the valves of the horn are original, etc. If we’re going to use a term to refer to a collection of design elements, then once one of those is gone, why still use the term? _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Thread killer. |
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_Daff Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Tedd Waggoner could shed a ton of light on the topic. I believe he was on board at Bach since the early 1970’s.
In my conversations with Roy, he let on that he had little interest in Elkhart history, that he focused on the New York era |
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dr-pepp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 541 Location: Austin TX
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:16 am Post subject: |
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kramergfy wrote: |
No, there are tons of corporation Bells made in the 70s that are not side seams. |
For the 37 Bell, I think that the CORPORATION stamp ended around 68000, but continued longer on 43 and 72 bells. I don't know what the significance is of that and thought it might be related to the side seam. _________________ Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:30 am Post subject: |
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dr-pepp wrote: | kramergfy wrote: |
No, there are tons of corporation Bells made in the 70s that are not side seams. |
For the 37 Bell, I think that the CORPORATION stamp ended around 68000, but continued longer on 43 and 72 bells. I don't know what the significance is of that and thought it might be related to the side seam. |
I suspect it's more likely related to when the die wore out and someone said "hey, while were at it, let's go for more modern look" _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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R. Dale Olson Regular Member
Joined: 11 Jan 2022 Posts: 18 Location: Fullerton, California: Galveston, Texas
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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The issue of Bach time-frames, as well as everything else related to Bach, is best presented in an excellent new publication (April, 2022), "Vincent Bach and his Trumpets', by one of the most authoritative researcher/writer/musicians, Ron Berndt.
A very affordable 172 book available only on Amazon.
R. Dale Olson |
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