| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Wilktone
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Asheville, NC
|
 Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:06 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Marc,
I agree that the second demonstration looked and sounded better. The first demonstration showed you collapsing your embouchure formation to descend, which can make it challenging to ascend back up from. There's also a risk of injury or other playing problems if you allow an embouchure formation that's too loose to creep into your middle and upper register.
The pushing and pulling of the mouthpiece and lips together along the teeth has been called different things by different people. I've not heard it called a "glide" yet, but it seems like you've found your "embouchure motion," as I prefer to call it. Some ideas for you to explore.
1. Keep the track of the embouchure motion working consistently in a straight line. Your general track is down to ascend and up to descend, but there's some side to side to this as well for most players. Don't hook off in a different direction at a certain part in your range.
2. As a starting point, try to keep the amount of embouchure motion (and any accompanying horn angle changes) consistent between octaves, just in the opposite direction. For example, the amount of motion you pull down to ascend from C in the staff to C above the staff will be the same as pushing up from C in the staff to C below the staff. Try the same with the horn angle changes that you're making.
3. You can explore horn angle changes by holding out a note and moving your horn left, right, up, and down and listen to the tone and intonation. Somewhere in there the tone will have the most focus and that's the spot you want to go to all the time when you play that pitch. If the intonation goes flat in one direction, that is probably the direction you want to make to descend from that point. If the intuition goes sharp, then try that angle change as you ascend.
I've got a lot more information about this on my blog (see my sig file below), if you're curious.
Good luck!
Dave
_________________
wilktone.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Embouchure control need not be something one can see as pronounced movement. How exactly one is applying effort to the embouchure muscles is not always fully visible.
Don't get hung up on embouchure "types" and pivots etc.
The best steps I took for range, tone, endurance and, above all, consistent and musical playing is:
1. Develop efficiency of the embouchure effort. (Will require a reduction in the embouchure effort in general but FIRST in the low/soft range.)
2. Increase the air power efficiency (the embouchure function determines this)
3. Develop strength with LIMITED and "cycled" calisthenic work. And never to the detriment of 1 or 2.
Your BEST embouchure is your lips in repose (almost completely relaxed) and gently touching. Any excessive "prep" you are applying adds to your embouchure effort.
You must change your habits in the low part of the range FIRST. Then venture up carefully as your embouchure skill and strength improve.
Playing high note "methods" of endless high tones will only reinforce poor habits.
Build you playing on tongued attacks and valved slurs. Not lips slurs and "flexibility" exercises dominantly. This will give you a more musical approach and more security. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wilktone
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Asheville, NC
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kalijah wrote: | | You must change your habits in the low part of the range FIRST. Then venture up carefully as your embouchure skill and strength improve. |
Sometimes, but you must play in the low range CORRECTLY. It's much easier to play in a way that's wrong, but sounds pretty good, in the low register than in the upper register. For many players it's better to start in the upper register and connect it downward instead. If you're familiar with basic brass embouchure types you can make a pretty good guess as to which students might do better with starting higher and then opening the sound lower.
That said, I don't think Marc is one of those players. But it is still easy for players belonging to his embouchure type to play in the lower register incorrectly (see his latest video on the first demonstration).
Dave
_________________
wilktone.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Sometimes, but you must play in the low range CORRECTLY. |
I didn't imply "incorrectly".
An effective low range, by my method:
- light of effort (if the tone is too high then this is not achieved)
- neutral of set-up (your NATURAL rest state, forget TYPE)
- closed in repose (lips touching if no air pressure/flow)
-beautiful tone
-efficient of air power
-crisp immediate and controlled attacks, even when soft
- ability to play EXTREMELY soft without tone cutting-out
In regard to a closed aperture. If you are making an embouchure action to open the aperture to play you MUST make an opposing "closing" action to have a tone. This is all wasted effort and a major reason too many are using excessive embouchure effort to play. The air pressure will open the aperture when required. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3309
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kalijah wrote: | | ... In regard to a closed aperture. If you are making an embouchure action to open the aperture to play you MUST make an opposing "closing" action to have a tone. This is all wasted effort and a major reason too many are using excessive embouchure effort to play. The air pressure will open the aperture when required. |
---------------------
I think this is a very important item that can be easily misunderstood.
What part of the embouchure effort do you feel is critical, and what is 'wasted'? The effort to 'close the aperture' or that to 'open the aperture'?
Is there a 'blending of effort' needed to establish the aperture flexibility to produce the desired pitch?
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wilktone
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Asheville, NC
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | Sometimes, but you must play in the low range CORRECTLY. |
I didn't imply "incorrectly".
|
No you didn't and I'm sorry if you feel like I'm talking past you, instead of to you.
The two main quibbles I have with your recommendation are:
1. It's very easy for brass players to play incorrectly in the low register and have seemingly good results, but low register played wrong can hinder high register development.
2. Many players tend to do better by using their high register as the foundation and learning to descend, keeping their overall embouchure form consistent.
| Quote: | An effective low range, by my method:
- light of effort (if the tone is too high then this is not achieved) |
Effortless playing is, of course, a goal. But simply playing the low register with minimal effort doesn't guarantee correct technique that will connect with and help develop the upper register.
| Quote: | | - neutral of set-up (your NATURAL rest state, forget TYPE) |
You seem to be pretty opposed to classification of embouchure technique into discernible patterns. Personally, I've found them to be a powerful pedagogical tool.
But as far as using the natural rest state to lead towards the student's correct embouchure form, I think it depends. I would agree that the position of the mouth corners, for example, should be more or less locked in the same position where they are at rest. The player's jaw position, on the other hand, might be radically different. The embouchure should be firmed, even for the low register, and I personally don't feel that this firmness could be described as "neutral" or "rest state." At least not the embouchure form that I feel is better.
| Quote: | | - closed in repose (lips touching if no air pressure/flow) |
I agree (more to follow).
I try to be careful with this sort of descriptor. It's very subjective, for one thing. And again, a player can get a big, fat, dark tone in the low register by collapsing the embouchure formation and dropping the jaw. If that's what someone finds "beautiful," then they can practice in the low register in a manner that hinders high register development.
| Quote: | | -efficient of air power |
Yes, breathing is important and I too have found that having good embouchure technique in the low register has a noticeable effect in how easy it feels to blow in the low register.
| Quote: | | -crisp immediate and controlled attacks, even when soft |
Yes. I found that often a low register that is too loose and flabby results in a "twa" sound at the attacks.
| Quote: | | - ability to play EXTREMELY soft without tone cutting-out |
I'll have to think more about this one and maybe try experimenting a little on my own or with a student or three. I suspect that extremely soft playing in the low register would not be easy with a collapsed embouchure formation, but some players get really good at playing in a way I consider wrong.
| kalijah wrote: | | ... In regard to a closed aperture. If you are making an embouchure action to open the aperture to play you MUST make an opposing "closing" action to have a tone. This is all wasted effort and a major reason too many are using excessive embouchure effort to play. The air pressure will open the aperture when required. |
Yes, I agree with you here.
| JayKosta wrote: | | What part of the embouchure effort do you feel is critical, and what is 'wasted'? The effort to 'close the aperture' or that to 'open the aperture'? |
My reasoning, for what it's worth, is that when a player deliberately (or unconsciously) opens the lips slightly before blowing that there is tendency to pin the lips into that position or otherwise twist or wind up the lips underneath the rim. When the mouthpiece is placed on the lips after they are firmed, breathing through the mouth corners while leaving the lips center lightly touching maintains the set up much better.
Beyond that, the aperture is blown open, not forced open with the lip muscles. Even if you start the pitch with the aperture open, the lips then do need to come together and are held in a particular firmness so that the aperture can open and close quite rapidly. By starting the pitch with the aperture only open you're adding an unnecessary step at the beginning of the note.
| Quote: | | Is there a 'blending of effort' needed to establish the aperture flexibility to produce the desired pitch? |
I prefer to think of the embouchure effort for any particular note at a particular dynamic to be more or less static. When everything is lined up to play the pitch you're not really trying to close or open the aperture, you're allowing the air to do that.
Dave
_________________
wilktone.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | The embouchure should be firmed, even for the low register, and I personally don't feel that this firmness could be described as "neutral" or "rest state." |
The embouchure has some natural elasticity that is rarely exploited by a "firming" approach on low pitches.
Getting students to "firm" is not a challenge. Getting them to not do it excessively takes some coaching. I get students to begin in repose and show them how to add "firming" effort only in the smallest amounts.
Playing the low and soft range with the smallest effort and further reducing the effort with is one of the best things I did for my playing approach.
Playing "firm" on low pitches give no headroom of effort for range and endurance. I can often tell when a student has been introduced to tone production by buzzing. They have excessive embouchure effort, especially in the low to middle range. They usually have no range above the staff. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steve0930
Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 191
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hello All
This has been a great thread and humbling for someone like me to read all the insights and analysis.
I have one question regarding initial "firmness" of the set up. Kalijah are you saying no firmness required when starting low and Dave/Wilktones saying some firmness always in the set up?
In the last week or so (having looked at a Roger Ingram video ) I have introduced a tiny bit of firmness to my chin before I start and it seems to help.
Way I see it lower tension "epicentre" is desirable so the tension has to go somewhere else.. so chin and muscles around the lips are always "strung" like the rim of a tennis racket, and then just as a tennis player can execute a soft drop shot or a 130mph serve the racket rim stays the same...the goal also when playing low or high on the horn.
Sorry for my naivety but that's the question- Modicum of firmness at the outset or not?
Cheers and stay safe
Steve in Helsinki.
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3309
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think we can all agree that it doesn't make sense to use more embouchure 'firmness' than is necessary to produce the desired pitch and sound quality - doing that would require more 'blowing power' to overcome that amount of firmness.
So, the question comes down to - How to discover and produce the optimum (perhaps not the minimum) amount of firmness.
Are there 'firmness' ideas that should be part of 'standard technique'?
And are there ideas that should be avoided or discouraged?
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bach_again
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 2481
Location: Northern Ireland
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JayKosta wrote: | | I think we can all agree that it doesn't make sense to use more embouchure 'firmness' than is necessary to produce the desired pitch and sound quality - doing that would require more 'blowing power' to overcome that amount of firmness. |
Dave Wilken - very good posts. Perhaps you can hold me to account for the following:
Jay, I think you can play with a firmness in your corners/legs which doesn't translate to a stiff, unresponsive embouchure - or one that needs more "blowing" to produce a sound.
One of the things that really helped my lower register is playing with more mouthpiece pressure than before, and this concept of "firmness" - avoiding the "flabby lower lip" and maintaining correct form. As a IIIB these are the concepts that work for me. I feel firmness in the legs of my emboucure IE where the rim meets the sides of the lips.
Dave has been much more succinct and adequete at answering these specifics, but I wanted to throw in my 2c. There is a fine line between stiff/tight/tense and "firm". "Lightly touching" is a nice Reinhardt tag line.
_________________
Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Players often seem to approach concepts as black or white. For example:
| Quote: | | There is a fine line between stiff/tight/tense and "firm". |
Not a fine line. A broad range. There is maximum muscular effort, and there is relaxed. There is a LARGE range of possibilities of "firmness" between those.
There is a common goal among players and teachers to play with "relaxed" lips. While that is not literally possible, especially for ascending, improvements in the efficiency of embouchure effort yield these:
better tone
more calm approach
improved endurance
more "headroom" of effort for range
air power efficiency (less aperture air flow resistance)
less "tongue arch" action to ascend (which improves air efficiency as well)
| Quote: | | "Lightly touching" is a nice Reinhardt tag line. |
I use this instruction as well. And one can lightly touch with almost zero embouchure effort. In no way would I consider this as "firm" in action but yet the opposite.
Anyone can contact me with PM if you would like to study my specific approach. I am already working with some individuals. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bach_again
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 2481
Location: Northern Ireland
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kalijah wrote: | Players often seem to approach concepts as black or white. For example:
| Quote: | | There is a fine line between stiff/tight/tense and "firm". |
Not a fine line. A broad range. There is maximum muscular effort, and there is relaxed. There is a LARGE range of possibilities of "firmness" between those. |
I was using an idiom. In the context of the post it should have made sense. One person's fine line is another's broad range.
| Quote: | | I think you can play with a firmness in your corners/legs which doesn't translate to a stiff, unresponsive embouchure - or one that needs more "blowing" to produce a sound. |
_________________
Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wilktone
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Asheville, NC
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
A lot of the descriptors we use to teach and talk technique are vague. "Firmness," "relaxed," "effortlessness," are some examples. Please don't take my suggestions here to the extreme. That's not what I'm trying to convey.
And a lot of what an individual student needs to do is based on what they are already doing and where they need to go. So if you're playing with an embouchure formation that is too tight, working on playing with less firmness is the goal. Starting in the low register, where it's easier to relax, is a useful approach. On the other hand, if you're too loose already then approaching things in the low register, where it's easier to play too loose, is potentially going to work against your upper register development.
The two above images are two players with very similar embouchures, both playing a pedal Bb. The top photo shows much more embouchure firmness while the bottom shows severe collapsing of the embouchure formation to play that low.
Here's a gif of a the bottom player playing from F above high Bb, high Bb, middle Bb, low Bb, pedal Bb.
Here is a gif of a different player (different embouchure type). Notice that this player descends with much more embouchure firmness than the gif above.
Between playing with too much firmness and not enough, I find the later to be more common. However, that's not something I would assume a player is doing without being able to watch them play. Marc's (original poster's) second video demonstrates two approaches on the octave slurs. The first demonstration shows his embouchure collapsing to descend to the low G. In his second demonstration he's allowing his "glide" (my preferred term is "embouchure motion) to assist with the register changes and he is able to descend with much less collapse. I believe that if he continues to work on this he will find that it helps his upper register develop as well as making his low register more secure.
| Quote: | | Playing the low and soft range with the smallest effort and further reducing the effort with is one of the best things I did for my playing approach. |
I would not assume that the best things for my own playing are going to be correct for everyone else. If a student has the same issues that you had, then it's a good approach. But it certainly needs some qualifications if you're offering this advice online to someone who's playing you either haven't seen or just seen a brief video clip. At least that's how I tend to view my suggestions when I'm giving them online.
| Quote: | | Jay, I think you can play with a firmness in your corners/legs which doesn't translate to a stiff, unresponsive embouchure - or one that needs more "blowing" to produce a sound. |
Yes, I believe that this is possible to develop and is much better in the long term. The specific mechanics necessary to do so depends on the player and requires at least watching the musician play and probably some controlled experimentation too.
| Quote: | | One of the things that really helped my lower register is playing with more mouthpiece pressure than before, and this concept of "firmness" - avoiding the "flabby lower lip" and maintaining correct form. As a IIIB these are the concepts that work for me. I feel firmness in the legs of my emboucure IE where the rim meets the sides of the lips. |
This is probably good for players of all embouchure types. But again, it depends on what you're already doing. If you're clamping up, it's probably going to be counterproductive.
Dave
_________________
wilktone.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
