Are copper bells always darker?

[nieuwguyski]

I wanted to split this discussion off from the "Bach 37 vs. Bach 37G" thread, where copper bells had been mentioned.

In my experience, how a copper bell is made matters. Bells made from copper sheet have to go through multiple heat cycles, where the metal is heated to soften it between rounds of shaping it. The resulting bells are soft (as the dents in my Calicchio Copper flugelhorn will attest to) and I would agree that they are DARK.

But plated ("electrodeposited") copper bells are different.

[Brassnose]

Long back I could playtest a Schilke B6 with copper bell: most definitely a bright horn. I liked it.

Also, some place on Brent Peters Facebook feed he states that a copper bell he uses is his brightest bell.

I think a lot of the confusion with copper bell stems from that fact that many people call pieces copper which are not really copper, such as red brass, bronze, and the like. Then add fabrication and treatment, as you said, and you’re right in the middle of the puddle.
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2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[stuartissimo]

Given all the available manufacturing techniques (modern and traditional) I don’t doubt that it’s possible to make a ‘bright sounding’ bell with a high copper content. However, it seems more practical to use it primarily for a darker sound. For one thing, current material choices have become a standard that many builders and manufacturers can follow to a (reasonbly) predictable result. But also (assuming high copper content brass is more expensive) if the same bright result can be achieved using cheaper materials, why would you pick the more expensive one? And finally, there’s customer expectation…many would be quite disappointed if the got a copper bell and then didn’t get a dark sound…

Just my thoughts of course. It’s an interesting idea though.
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces

[Halflip]

[Jerry]

My Schilke C3Lb has a fairly thin copper bell. It’s my go-to horn for community orchestra and occasional church service. I can get a gorgeous ringing sound at louder volumes and a warmer sound at quieter volumes. But I wouldn’t call it dark.

I don’t know if I can get it to ring because the bell is copper or because the bell is thin or because that’s the sound I’m striving for or because Schilke designed the horn that way.

I’m only reporting that I wouldn’t describe my copper belled trumpet as dark.

[Divitt Trumpets]

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I have a Getzen 900DLX. To me it does not sound particularly dark. It also has the silver leadpipe, which probably lends itself to "brilliance" (how Getzen describes the horn). Leadpipe materials may be part of the difference you saw with the two models you had (where one had a copper pipe and the other brass). It's a fun trumpet but I still don't have a lot of time on it.

[Shark01]

[shofarguy]

I have played quite a few hand-hammered copper bell horns and have had the opportunity to directly compare them with the same model horn made with yellow brass during the same period of time by the same artisans. In every case, to my ear, the copper bell produced a lighter timber with less prominent low-end frequencies and more prominent mid-range frequencies.

The models:
Kanstul 1025
Wild Thing trumpet (both with #43 mouth pipe)
Wild Thing flugelhorn
Wild Thing Short Model cornet
Wild Thing American Long Model cornet

The one caveat in this is that some (not all) bell rim diameters were different, which I've been told adds high frequencies to the horn's timbre.

I also have a #1J slide made of brass and silver plated to compare in my Wild Thing trumpet with a #1J slide that has a copper crook and is clear coated. The sound I get from the copper slide is obviously brighter to my ear.

Another's impression:

I was told that, when Arturo Sandoval tested the new WT trumpet with its copper bell and #43 mouth pipe, he proclaimed it "the best lead horn ever created," or something to that effect. In contrast, in a Jens Lindimann's video, Arturo used his gold plated brass Wild Thing (25-O pipe) to demonstrate how a player can produce a very wide sound color pallet with one equipment setup. He didn't choose the copper horn to do that.

Second caveat:
I have not been able to hear a similar comparison of another player in a performance sized acoustic room. All of my comparisons have been from behind the bell, but they have been consistent. Also, my son listened to me playing my two WT flugelhorn in another room (one brass bell, one copper bell) and gave a similar description as what I heard as the player.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[chase1973]

The way Schilke copper bells are spun, is unique, fabricated electrolytically. They are made thin (though not nearly as thin as the ones from the early '70's-those beryllium-copper bells made by Kiefer plating were an assault w a deadly weapon LOL) and are geared for offering brilliance, edge and focus above the staff yet warm and intimate with a deeper cupped MPC.

Anderson has made all copper bells for Schilke since 1977 which was when Kiefer Plating closed shop. Kiefer made beryllium copper bells with actual beryllium in them. The beryllium acted as a hardening alloy so the bells could be made super thin and light. How light? Under 5 ounces (pre plating). Faddis had one around 4 ounces and Chase had one about 4.5 ounces. Anderson REFUSES to make them that light and they now come in around 6.5 to 8 ounces.

I have a pretty light beryllium-copper bell but don't look at it wrong or it'll dent it's so fragile.

[ConnArtist]

I suspect there are so many parameters and variations in the total horn solution, that It’s unlikely to identify a definitive effect of ONLY bell alloy.

But all things being equal, I’m going to cast my vote for… no?

I have a Conn 5A and 9A (😎). I think they’re one or two years apart IIRC. Pretty much identical cornets, but the 5A has nickel leadpipe and yellow brass bell, while the 9A has copper leadpipe and copper bell. The rest of tubing, wrap, bore, valves identical.

I wanted to answer this question for myself a while ago, so I A/B’d them. Played them in my bedroom in the dark. Just kept playing scales and riffs in like 30-60sec intervals back and forth, plopping them in the bed and grabbing the other one. After about 10 or 15min, both horns were warm, and I’d forgotten which one was which (intentionally let myself lose track, hence doing in the dark).

By the end of the experiment, I didn’t know which one was which… I could not hear or feel a dang bit of difference in either. And the 9A has a copper bell AND lead pipe, whereas 5A has yellow brass bell and nickel lead pipe… so still the lead pipe variable in addition to bell.

Caveat: I worked way too much with chainsaws and woodworking without hearing protection in my youth, not to mention 20-30 arena rock concerts that left my ears ringing for a day… but I could hear no difference in their timbre. None. Nada.

Yet I can hear the difference btw my ‘39 Imperial Hancraft and ‘45 Committee (news flash, the Imperial is “darker”🤫)… so I’m not TOTALLY deaf 😅

So… the TL;DNR: side by side Conn 5A vs 9A suggests no difference.
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"Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML

[cgaiii]

Interesting discussion. I have four copper bells. My Schilke CXL has two "Beryllium" bells. From the above discussion, I believe one is a Kiefer (extremely light) and the other is an Anderson (a bit heavier). The trumpet is from 1977, which would put it at the transition of the bells, and the second bell probably came later from my understanding. It is one of the CXLs with a set of slides so it can be converted into a Bb. The bells play differently from the yellow brass bell I have for my X3L. I am not sure I would say darker, but they certainly offer a range of colors when you play. I think of them as a little more diffuse, if that makes sense. They slot "softer," for lack of a better word. I definitely like the way they play on the C trumpet. However, I also love the way the X3L plays, not necessarily bright/dark difference, but a difference in nuance. These bells may take a little of the edge off the C trumpet.
I also have a Kanstul 1510 C, also with a silver plated copper bell. This is a very heavy bell, very solid, and I feel it plays more like a brass bell. Of course, the trumpet is a whole different animal from the Schilkes, different playing characteristics, etc., and I play it with a different mouthpiece. It is fixed bell vs. the tuning bells of the Schilke, totally different taper, so I cannot compare just the difference of bell, but it is a pretty bright trumpet. Plays well, but differently. Can hardly tell it is a copper bell. For a long time I thought it was not.
Lastly, I have a bass trumpet (BAC) with a copper bell (clear lacquer). This bell is soft. It very definitely has a mellowing effect on the sound, allows all kinds of coloring and resonance. I have no equal comparison because all other bass trumpets I have played were totally different forms and were silver plated. I feel the copper bell makes the sound diffuse a bit more, but it is a joy to play and really shines in the lower range of the instrument.
I also have a Taylor standard flugelhorn with a red brass (lots of copper) bell that really has a great sound. Again, I might call it darker, but really I just think of it as a bit mellower, more diffuse sound.
I tend to like the copper and high copper bells for the playing characteristics, and I think a lot of what happens with the sound on them will depend on the player. Then again, perhaps I have just never understood what people mean by a "dark" sound on a trumpet-like instrument.
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Bb: Schilke X3L AS, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Bb Cornet: Getzen 800 DLXS
Pic: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Std
Bass Tr: BAC Custom
Nat. Tr: Nikolai Mänttäri Morales Haas replica

[dstpt]