Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:13 am Post subject: Vizutti high-note Tongue position
This is from Allen Vizutti. It blows my mind because my use of the tongue for high notes has always been "EEE" with the tip of the tongue behind the lower teeth. This puts it behind the upper teeth. Any observations/comments?
"Imagine a ball the size of a BB placed at the point where your two top front teeth meet at the gum line. The ball is held in place by your tongue, back from the tip so that the front of the tongue is touching the back of the front teeth. The contact point of the ball on the tongue can vary.
Blowing firmly with the tongue in this position, through the spot occupied by the imaginary ball will create tremendous air turbulence even AT SOFT DYNAMICS. Don't drop the ball by letting the tongue drop. Let the force of air create an opening. Experiment with simultaneously increasing air pressure and the firmness with which you hold the imaginary ball in place, still at a soft dynamic.
You should eventually experience production of some soft effortless upper register notes. Observe the degree of firmness with which you hold your tongue in place when you experience successful production of some upper notes. (This tongue position is basically effective for notes, 2-
ledger line high 'C' and above)" _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:28 am Post subject:
Just guessing but perhaps it's more important what part of the tongue holds the BB, and less so where the tip winds up?
To clarify I can't make any of this work for me. But I've tried hard to understand the uncountable posts on the subject. I confess that I've never read this particular description but it is intriguing. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:11 am Post subject:
My understanding of the 'physiology' and 'physics' behind the advantage of using tongue position as part of pitch control is that -
The muscular action used to control and move the tongue affects the lip, chin, and perhaps throat positioning. And the resulting lip / chin / throat positioning is much more important than the actual position of the tongue itself regarding pitch.
So, move YOUR tongue however it seems to give the best results.
I can definitely feel how my lips / chin / throat are affected by tongue positioning.
I don't concern myself with the location of the tip of my tongue, for me it's the position of the 'arched' section on the top surface of my tongue. That section seems to move in a forward manner. My tongue does feel 'arched', but not upward - more like the curved arch is muscled forward towards the aperture. I guess there is some up/down movement, but the 'control' is forward, and the up/down just 'seems to happen'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Never read through any of Allen's books or materials. I have heard him live when he was in his 20's. Whatever he's doing, it certainly works for him. He was amazing. I studied with Jerry Callet a little after his Trumpet Yoga years. Tongue through the teeth and no arch. Jerry had some bizarre ideas and was always experimenting. I'll say this about Jerry. His power in the doubles was ear splitting. I never heard him play an etude or a melody, mostly Clarke's Technical Studies. No matter what register he was playing in he never looked as if he was working very hard. I'm guessing Jerry was about 70 at the time. It worked for him.
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Vizutti high-note Tongue position
kehaulani wrote:
This is from Allen Vizutti. It blows my mind because my use of the tongue for high notes has always been "EEE" with the tip of the tongue behind the lower teeth. This puts it behind the upper teeth. Any observations/comments?
"Imagine a ball the size of a BB placed at the point where your two top front teeth meet at the gum line. The ball is held in place by your tongue, back from the tip so that the front of the tongue is touching the back of the front teeth. The contact point of the ball on the tongue can vary.
Blowing firmly with the tongue in this position, through the spot occupied by the imaginary ball will create tremendous air turbulence even AT SOFT DYNAMICS. Don't drop the ball by letting the tongue drop. Let the force of air create an opening. Experiment with simultaneously increasing air pressure and the firmness with which you hold the imaginary ball in place, still at a soft dynamic.
You should eventually experience production of some soft effortless upper register notes. Observe the degree of firmness with which you hold your tongue in place when you experience successful production of some upper notes. (This tongue position is basically effective for notes, 2-
ledger line high 'C' and above)"
There is such variation among players in shape and size of teeth, horn angle, mouthpiece, lip geometry, that there will of course be variations on our tongue placement. Not only does tongue position change based on register, but dynamics change a lot as well.
I also tend to arch the back/middle of my tongue to ascend but keep the tip behind the bottom teeth.
In the book Vizzutti state the following:
The syllables of 'AHHH", (low notes), and "EEEE", (high notes), are useful but not extreme enough. The syllables of "HHHEEE" and "SSSSS" can also be helpful in getting your tongue placement high and forward to the extreme.
The other book I am reading from Reinhardt says the following:
For the lower register used the following vowels: AAA-DAAA-TAAA
For the Middle register use the following vowels: OOO-DOOO-TOOO
For upper register use the following vowels: EEE-DEEE-TEEE
Pronouncing all the Reinhardt ones, the front of my tongue seems to only start going up that high at the "TEEE" add the "HHHEEE" its about the same and still below the top teeth for me, but the "SSSSS" that's when the front of my tongue is way up there, but not that high up, more like touching the bottom of my top teeth.
It seem to me the back arch of my tongue just keep moving forward in the mouth.
strangely, I just started on low C as a test and started saying all those syllables and trying not to change my lip position, unless the syllable forced a move. My findings are strange.... on some the pitch did not change, some went fuzzy, but as I went up though the syllables, it did force a change in note... snake oil? anyone else what to try it?
Joined: 29 Apr 2022 Posts: 337 Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:00 pm Post subject:
For me keeping tongue the forward is as much getting the back of it out of my throat, so as to keep that open, as much as it is helping anything in the front. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
1996 Bach 37
I have his Range Book and I don't recall reading this. I'll have to read it again as he has quite a bit of text and answered questions in his book. Allen was taught by his father and relied very heavily on things like Clarke Technical Studies etc. He believes that most play mouthpieces that are TOO BIG. He played all of his Lead and Classical on a Schilke 14AC in college. He had ordered another mouthpiece from Schilke and had received this piece by mistake. He states that he tried to keep it concealed because of the stigma of playing this piece in Orchestra etc. (everyone knows you are suppose to play a toilet bowl in orchestra ... heaven forbid anyone think outside the box) _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
Joined: 21 Jan 2020 Posts: 194 Location: NW of ORD
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:36 am Post subject:
Quote:
For me keeping tongue the forward is as much getting the back of it out of my throat, so as to keep that open, as much as it is helping anything in the front.
For sure. This cleared up the issue of closing up my throat - which is tongue issue, not really a throat issue. As a result, my tone began to improve, and my range began to improve. _________________ Bach190ML43
Kanstul 1001
Bach NY7
Yamaha 631 Flugel
"Fire Dance" was composed in memory of Bill Chase and first featured on the "Road Father" album (Road Father was Chases's parents nick name for Woody Herman). This solo is incredible in that it is played within a set; it features range; improvisation; double and triple tonguing; and circular breathing (5:25) ... I believe Allen was 22 yoa at the time.) _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
The following are typical and common pitfalls that cause stiffness, poor response, and general inconsistency in trumpet playing:
Not warming up - 15-20 minutes - always. (Specific warm-up material is in the Allen Vizzutti Trumpet Method books).
Practicing too many lip slurs in the upper register top of staff and above.- not necessary
Too many long tones - not necessary. Stifness caused by static mouthpiece / lip contact.
Concentrating and working on embouchure and corner strength - not necessary.
The above 3 items make me very stiff so I don't practice them unless I need to brush up a technical move in which case minimal practice on lip slurs for instance does the trick.
Playing too loudly. Not practicing enough softly. Not taking frequent short rests / breaks PLAYING A MOUTHPIECE THAT IS TOO BIG and it's inevitable result: TOO MUCH LEFT HAND OR FINGER RING PRESSURE.
Over blowing. Leaving the mouthpiece on your chops too long without a lift-off or lightening of pressure. Playing super heavy weight mouthpieces or trumpets - not necessary – this equipment creates artificial resistance and dead sound.
Not having an open mind.
Not being willing to experiment.
Bad hand position. Not inhaling habitually in a relaxed and deep way.
Tongue placement too low in middle and upper range.
Not using common sense - if practicing XXX or YYY makes you feel like **** than don't do it.
Here's what you need to figure out:
The concept of efficient tone production, steady smooth airflow, relaxation and aperture control.
Practice shorter times but more than once a day. If you sound terrible and can take a day off - do it. Go do home work. Hang with some cool people. Pick your friend's brains about trumpet - with a grain of salt.
Fundamentals never change but the interpretation of the techniques with which to establish sound fundamentals, pun intended, vary. There is no path that is exactly the same for all players but great ideas and solid musical materials work well for most of us. Good Luck. AV My book "High Notes" in the merchandise section has text and practical studies and etudes about all of this for the classical or jazz trumpet player. _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:04 am Post subject:
I appreciate the cut&pate but what does that have to doi with high notes? Or rather, what am I overlooking? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
I appreciate the cut&pate but what does that have to doi with high notes? Or Or rather, what am I overlooking?
Nothing ... just pasting some interesting advice. The below is about Tongue Positioning ...
November 17, 2012
Tongue position and pitch. It does affect pitch but not much. If one drops the tongue while playing in the upper middle to high register it will cause the pitch to go flat. It is a common flaw. It will do the same down low but we need to drop the tongue for the lowest notes to get a big sound, just not too much. This is partly caused by sympathetic jaw movement - tongue goes down - jaw goes down - note goes flat. Use your ears.
Tongue placement does affect air speed just like a garden hose nozzle affects water speed when the water pressure is constant and the aperture is changed by adjusting the size of the nozzle hole by tightening and loosening it. Tighten and the water goes faster and farther. Open and the water flows slower and falls at your feet. Tongue placement is a factor in air speed and upper register control but only works in conjunction with other factors that must be functioning in a natural and correct way. These factors include mouthpiece size, smooth and steady air support and control of left hand and right hand finger ring pressure against the embouchure. Control of these factors is done by simple experimentation and sane exercises and studies. The results of tongue placement affect range more than pitch. (See "High Notes" book on this web site). _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
Early years - my Dad - who taught me owned a music store so I always had nice instruments beginning with the line of Conn cornets & trumpets, all in Bb culminating with the Constellation. Enter Doc Severinsen - guest artist when I was about 15. He heard me and gave me his Getzen Eterna. My starting mouthpiece was certainly a Bach 7C or 3C although I'm not sure. I remember trying some Conn and Olds mouthpieces along the way but not how long I might have used them. I ended up on a Bach 10&1/2C which I used for a long time. By today's standards that mouthpiece is not as shallow as it's reputation would imply. Plus Bach quality control and size consistency has always been legendarily bad.
During H.S. I went to Interlochen Music Camp for 2 summers and having been influenced by orchestral students there I tried to switch to a Bach 1&1/2. That lasted about a week and I said 'never again with the toilet bowls'. I had acquired a Getzen C trumpet by this time. Then I went to Eastman School of Music.
At ESM we had opportunity to experiment with mouthpieces, visit NYC and share ideas with other great trumpet players. I soon had new demands playing lead in big band, playing in the Rochester Phil, playing shows, chamber orchestra and in the faculty Eastman Brass Quintet etc. Firstly, the Getzen horns didn't make it as far as sound intonation and control. (The Eterna is pretty good as a solo instrument though and I kept my Getzen 4 valve flugel). I went to NYC and bought a Bach C and a Benge 3X-plus Bb with help from colleagues and a desire to match the 1st trumpet in the brass quintet. Trumpets were cheap in New York then.
The wild thing is the mouthpiece I was using successfully throughout these years on both C and Bb. I kept it quiet because I knew it had a negative stigma. It was a lucky find and a mistake. Schilke made a mouthpiece I ordered incorrectly and it worked great for me. I ordered a 14A4a. 14 diameter, A cup, 4 contour rim and an 'a' backbore - very tight. They sent me a 14A4 with a symphonic backbore - very large. It was definitely bright if you weren't careful but I was careful and it made many aspects of playing much easier. I played 1st on Mahler 5 on it, the Jolivet and Tomasi Concerti on it, big band on it and many other styles. I won an orchestral audition on it. Next came a choice. I had an offer to go with Woody Herman big band or join the San Antonio Symphony. _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Vizutti high-note Tongue position
kehaulani wrote:
This is from Allen Vizutti. It blows my mind because my use of the tongue for high notes has always been "EEE" with the tip of the tongue behind the lower teeth. This puts it behind the upper teeth. Any observations/comments?
"Imagine a ball the size of a BB placed at the point where your two top front teeth meet at the gum line. The ball is held in place by your tongue, back from the tip so that the front of the tongue is touching the back of the front teeth. The contact point of the ball on the tongue can vary.
Blowing firmly with the tongue in this position, through the spot occupied by the imaginary ball will create tremendous air turbulence even AT SOFT DYNAMICS. Don't drop the ball by letting the tongue drop. Let the force of air create an opening. Experiment with simultaneously increasing air pressure and the firmness with which you hold the imaginary ball in place, still at a soft dynamic.
You should eventually experience production of some soft effortless upper register notes. Observe the degree of firmness with which you hold your tongue in place when you experience successful production of some upper notes. (This tongue position is basically effective for notes, 2-
ledger line high 'C' and above)"
And right above this in "High Notes for Trumpet" (Page #7) Allen states Fact #15: Skilled trumpet players can hold any note, including upper tones, while moving the tongue up and down." _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Vizutti high-note Tongue position
RussellDDixon wrote:
... Tongue placement is a factor in air speed and upper register control but only works in conjunction with other factors that must be functioning in a natural and correct way. ...
RussellDDixon wrote:
... Allen states Fact #15: Skilled trumpet players can hold any note, including upper tones, while moving the tongue up and down."
--------------------------------------------
The bit about "while moving the tongue up and down" is possible because the "conjunction with other factors" has initially established the lip/embouchure adjustments that are needed for the note. As long as the player does not disturb those adjustments while moving the tongue and continues with the necessary internal air pressure, the note can be held irrespective of the position of the tongue itself. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Tongue placement does affect air speed just like a garden hose nozzle affects water speed when the water pressure is constant and the aperture is changed by adjusting the size of the nozzle hole by tightening and loosening it. Tighten and the water goes faster and farther. Open and the water flows slower and falls at your feet.
Not exactly. And the hose analogy does not apply to the tongue when playing.
Quote:
when the water pressure is constant
That is the flaw in your understanding. The pressure is varied at the nozzle by regulating the flow. High flows have more viscous loses of water pressure in the long narrow hose (plus the supply piping). Full supply pressure does not exist at the nozzle for high flow.
In the case of playing the small aperture (relative to the short and wide airway before it) and the instrument tone resistance assure that the lung pressure already exists at the aperture (bearing on the boundary where the aperture is) Arching the tongue does not increase that air pressure or increase the average speed of the air through the aperture.
Tongue arch is related to embouchure formation. It is not a booster of air speed or air pressure. (Quite the opposite).
Tongue arch is related to embouchure formation. It is not a booster of air speed or air pressure. (Quite the opposite).
This is most interesting, since several methods talk about the formation of the arch in assisting with pitch. Now if that is due to the change in velocity of air over the lips, the actual vowel or whatever those theories state, who knows, all these methods conflict and even some state you can play high with a flat tongue. So is all the changes in air speed and volume only coming from compression of the lungs from the muscles around it and our lip apreture?
I do notice that when saying different vowels, it moves the arch of the tongue forward and in response the bottom jaw seems to have to move position a bit.
Is this what you mean in how its related to embouchure formation? I would
have to image this is all related somehow.
Our craft is old, and still no consensus on methodology.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this Kallijah!
This is most interesting, since several methods talk about the formation of the arch in assisting with pitch.
Moving the tongue can help. But it has nothing to do with air-speed by some layman's misunderstanding of air mechanics.
There is an incessant effort by teachers and players to repeat what they HEAR about "air speed controls pitch". Its just hearsay.
The state of the lip firmness or tension controls pitch. But it is not politically correct to state the truth, usually out of fear of the student using EXCESSIVE tension in the lips.
(Yet most of the same advise mouthpiece buzzing, which encourages excessive embouchure effort.)
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