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Gonya
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Location: New Jersey
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 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:18 pm Post subject: Losing muscle memory after time off |
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Whenever I take a even a small amount of time off the horn (over 24 hours), things feel like they aren't working properly and the response is a little forced. Doing things like playing the mouthpiece can help me to get my focus back, and my range is still there, but the chops don't cooperate until a day or a few days of practice. I'm very diligent when it comes to practicing, but I feel like most players can take a small amount of time off and come back without too much trouble.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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You need to be more tuned in to what's going on when you play.
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ericmpena
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Could be age working against you.
Up until my mid 20’s playing felt like autopilot. I rarely practiced…everything just worked.
Now I’m late 30’s and I find myself practicing daily just to stay up to par with how I used to play when I was younger.
Certain scales or finger patterns start to give me issues now if I don’t practice them regularly. That never used to happen to me…so I think it mostly has to do with age. |
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GeorgeB
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:39 am Post subject: |
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When I played in my teens and twenties I could put the horn down for weeks and pick it up anytime and play it without problems. Now, in my mid eighties, if I don't play everyday it takes as many days as I took off to get my tone back.
George
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:49 am Post subject: |
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As always, I like to think about what's really at play when I run into issues.
1 of 2 things is happening here --
When you take time off, that means your chops are generally going to be "fresh" or "fresher" than if you had not taken time off. So what you're saying is: I have trouble playing on "fresh" or "fresher" chops. Which would logically mean: I tend to play on fatigued chops more often than not and that's what I'm used to.
The other possibility is that you are playing in a way that isn't 100% "owned" by you. Put another way, you aren't playing the same way that you were the day before right from the beginning (combo of air, chops, and tongue). It might take you some time to "find" it and then you're good to go.
Solutions --
1. Don't play on fatigued chops and learn to play on fresh chops
2. Nearly first notes of the day should be good, comfortable, and 100% "owned".
I suspect it's a combo of the above issues.
EDIT: After reading dstpts response i edited my age bit. What Phil smith says is my experience as well.
Last edited by abontrumpet on Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:25 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:36 am Post subject: |
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1 day off and I can tell.
2 days off and the guys in the band can tell.
3 days off and everyone can tell.
When I was paying the bills with the trumpet I never took more than 12 hours off.
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JRoyal
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Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 770
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Losing muscle memory after time off |
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| Gonya wrote: | | Whenever I take a even a small amount of time off the horn (over 24 hours), things feel like they aren't working properly and the response is a little forced. Doing things like playing the mouthpiece can help me to get my focus back, and my range is still there, but the chops don't cooperate until a day or a few days of practice. I'm very diligent when it comes to practicing, but I feel like most players can take a small amount of time off and come back without too much trouble. |
Could be a sign that you use more pressure than optimal and are relying more on the kinesthetic feel rather than letting your sound concept motivate production of sound…or simply that your warm up isn’t a good fit. I think you are asking a pertinent question and some self observation and experimentation may be very helpful.
All things being equal, a day or two off should leave you refreshed and better. |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | You need to be more tuned in to what's going on when you play. |
Yes, indeed, and...
| ericmpena wrote: | Could be age working against you.
Up until my mid 20’s playing felt like autopilot. I rarely practiced…everything just worked.
Now I’m late 30’s and I find myself practicing daily just to stay up to par with how I used to play when I was younger.
Certain scales or finger patterns start to give me issues now if I don’t practice them regularly. That never used to happen to me…so I think it mostly has to do with age. |
All of us change with age. Phil Smith said in an interview several years ago (when he was maybe in his early 50s) that things were much easier for him in his early 20s, but he appreciated that he had become a smarter player and could continue to handle his load. He still had to practice, so it wasn't just "smarter playing."
I sent this text just yesterday to a former college student of mine now in his mid-40s. He was headed to a gig but had mentioned some recent struggles:
...we are athletes, and sometimes it’s hard to know our limits. You go for years with just minimal warm-up before a big gig, and everything goes great. Then one day you show up and try to do the same thing, but it’s a little bit harder, or you actually end up noticeably injuring yourself, or it could be just simple microtears in the lip tissue. Any thing can happened at any point. We just have to learn our own limitations. "Know thyself."
Last edited by dstpt on Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gonya
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Joined: 11 Nov 2021
Posts: 30
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | As always, I like to think about what's really at play when I run into issues.
1 of 2 things is happening here --
When you take time off, that means your chops are generally going to be "fresh" or "fresher" than if you had not taken time off. So what you're saying is: I have trouble playing on "fresh" or "fresher" chops. Which would logically mean: I tend to play on fatigued chops more often than not and that's what I'm used to.
The other possibility is that you are playing in a way that isn't 100% "owned" by you. Put another way, you aren't playing the same way that you were the day before right from the beginning (combo of air, chops, and tongue). It might take you some time to "find" it and then you're good to go.
Solutions --
1. Don't play on fatigued chops and learn to play on fresh chops
2. Nearly first notes of the day should be good, comfortable, and 100% "owned".
I suspect it's a combo of the above issues.
EDIT: After reading dstpts response i edited my age bit. What Phil smith says is my experience as well. |
I agree that it's probably a combination of both of these issues. Everything feels best for the first hour or so that I play, and then I feel slightly tired. This slightly tired feeling persists unless I take a really long rest, so I tend to not care about it too much and continue playing anyway. I am only 16, so perhaps age is working against me but in the opposite way.
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"Let's face it, god didn't create us specifically to play the trumpet." - Doc Severinsen |
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dstpt
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 1286
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Gonya wrote: | | ...I am only 16, so perhaps age is working against me but in the opposite way. |
You're only 16?! What!? I thought we were trying to give advice to a comeback player in his 60s or 70s! Hahahaha!!!
Well, try to get good, solid, regular private instruction from a reliable teacher and learn to pace yourself. |
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Gonya
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Joined: 11 Nov 2021
Posts: 30
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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No, I'm not a comeback player lol. I think part of it is what you're used to do doing. Since it's the summer, I've had a lot of time and have been playing up to four hours a day. Everything is great when I can play a lot everyday, but if I go from playing all the time to not playing a lot, things can go downhill. My teacher sometimes takes off 1 day a week and he says that he only does it if he doesn't have any playing obligations the next day. This seems to be the norm for most professionals.
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"Let's face it, god didn't create us specifically to play the trumpet." - Doc Severinsen |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Gonya wrote: | | ...My teacher sometimes takes off 1 day a week and he says that he only does it if he doesn't have any playing obligations the next day. This seems to be the norm for most professionals. |
I can't speak for other professionals, but I rarely take a day off. I do try to be conscious of what kind of playing I'm doing day to day, so that I balance heavy/light, loud/soft with lots of gentle playing scattered throughout every day. |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| Gonya wrote: | | I agree that it's probably a combination of both of these issues. Everything feels best for the first hour or so that I play, and then I feel slightly tired. This slightly tired feeling persists unless I take a really long rest, so I tend to not care about it too much and continue playing anyway. I am only 16, so perhaps age is working against me but in the opposite way. |
As I suspected. Playing for an hour for your first session and experiencing the "slightly tired" is something that will work against you for this issue and for your career as a whole. You should stop playing the trumpet just before this "slightly tired" feeling happens or (since you may not know when its coming) immediately when it happens. At least 2 hours off. Try this for 2 weeks and you'll be surprised at the results. |
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Destructo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:18 am Post subject: |
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I can take a day off and the difference is that everything is a little bit 'stiff', and I need to do some extra facial muscle stretching and play some scales to get the fingers going, but it's otherwise no biggy.
BUT if I take more than 2 days, something happens. It feels like the vibrating part of the lip tissue actually starts to stiffen, and that makes *everything* feel a bit weird. I can play and do all the normal stuff, but it just doesn't feel the way my brain is expecting it to feel.
I usually just accept that the first day back is just a lost cause. I just clock some time in order for the lip tissue to be responsive for the following day. It really doesn't matter what I do, so long as a I get an hour in. The next day then feels pretty normal again.
| Quote: | Up until my mid 20’s playing felt like autopilot. I rarely practiced…everything just worked.
Now I’m late 30’s and I find myself practicing daily just to stay up to par with how I used to play when I was younger.
Certain scales or finger patterns start to give me issues now if I don’t practice them regularly. That never used to happen to me…so I think it mostly has to do with age. |
I've noticed some similar stuff, especially with learning piano. I did it a bit in school, and remember learning some stuff pretty quickly. I had only been learning for a few months, and liked the Beethoven piano sonata no. 8, and learned the opening section really quickly. I can still play it from memory today without really trying. Meanwhile, trying to learn stuff now is a constant battle against neurological inertia. Things just don't "automate" without a sometimes frustrating amount of repetition.
When you're young, any practise sticks. When you get older, only the most focused and deliberate parts of practise seem to really sink unless you used space repetition, which is hard to do if you're practising in a 'block'. |
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cbtj51
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Joined: 24 Nov 2015
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Location: SE US
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| dstpt wrote: |
All of us change with age. Phil Smith said in an interview several years ago (when he was maybe in his early 50s) that things were much easier for him in his early 20s, but he appreciated that he had become a smarter player and could continue to handle his load. He still had to practice, so it wasn't just "smarter playing."
I sent this text just yesterday to a former college student of mine now in his mid-40s. He was headed to a gig but had mentioned some recent struggles:
...we are athletes, and sometimes it’s hard to know our limits. You go for years with just minimal warm-up before a big gig, and everything goes great. Then one day you show up and try to do the same thing, but it’s a little bit harder, or you actually end up noticeably injuring yourself, or it could be just simple microtears in the lip tissue. Any thing can happened at any point. We just have to learn our own limitations. "Know thyself." (ancient Greek aphorism) |
Thanks Dan! That about covers it!!!
Life is Short, find the Joy in it!
Mike
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cbtj51
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:07 am Post subject: |
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I am not a professional, but I do practice everyday and play publicly a lot, a LOT!
I played 3 Church Services yesterday, 2 morning and one evening, and they were all very different from one another. Expecting and understanding that is of primary importance! Perspective X Perception= "Reality"!
Life is Short, find the Joy in it!
Mike
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'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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Gonya
Regular Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2021
Posts: 30
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: |
As I suspected. Playing for an hour for your first session and experiencing the "slightly tired" is something that will work against you for this issue and for your career as a whole. You should stop playing the trumpet just before this "slightly tired" feeling happens or (since you may not know when its coming) immediately when it happens. At least 2 hours off. Try this for 2 weeks and you'll be surprised at the results. |
The "slightly tired" feeling is more often caused by practicing a lot, then taking a break and coming back. I can play for two hours and feel great, but if I rest and come back, it takes some time to get going again. I'm probably not really feeling the fatigue until some rest takes place.
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"Let's face it, god didn't create us specifically to play the trumpet." - Doc Severinsen |
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wilder
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Posts: 341
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Losing muscle memory after time off |
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| Gonya wrote: | | Whenever I take a even a small amount of time off the horn (over 24 hours), things feel like they aren't working properly and the response is a little forced. Doing things like playing the mouthpiece can help me to get my focus back, and my range is still there, but the chops don't cooperate until a day or a few days of practice. I'm very diligent when it comes to practicing, but I feel like most players can take a small amount of time off and come back without too much trouble. |
Play long and hard every day my friend. jw |
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wilder
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | 1 day off and I can tell.
2 days off and the guys in the band can tell.
3 days off and everyone can tell.
When I was paying the bills with the trumpet I never took more than 12 hours off. |
yup. jw |
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wilder
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Location: NYC
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| dstpt wrote: | | Gonya wrote: | | ...I am only 16, so perhaps age is working against me but in the opposite way. |
You're only 16?! What!? I thought we were trying to give advice to a comeback player in his 60s or 70s! Hahahaha!!!
Well, try to get good, solid, regular private instruction from a reliable teacher and learn to pace yourself. |
yup. jw |
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