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mulligan stew
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 1846
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 Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| drunkiq, that's a very interesting comment. I've heard a bit about that before...but how can that be true? Isn't the whole point of the tuning bell to remove the gap at a critical node, a gap that would be caused by having the main tuning slide pulled out? do you have any references or back-up for this? i'm not doubting you--I've played a B1Lb for several years now and have never pulled the main slide out at all. Tonight I'll experiment a bit...but I'm skeptical. |
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drunkiq
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Joined: 16 Aug 2002
Posts: 1117
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:21 am Post subject: |
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I belive the point is do due less tuning with the main tuning slide for intonation reasons. Pulling out the main TS a little on it will make little to no difference. One time I called the factory and they told me that some prefer to do some of their tuning from the main TS but never said why. Last week someone showed me this trick. If you move it just a tad you will feel the difference.
Try it out and let me know what you think changed....
-marc |
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_Don Herman
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3344
Location: Monument, CO, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:43 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm... A "gap" at a node can hurt or help response and intonation (warning -- based on long ago and quasi-forgotten graduate courses in acoustics). I'd guess playing with the tuning slide, in addition to the bell, adds another dimension of freedom to help dial your horn in, to you. Since Schilke paid a LOT of attention to the physics behind the horn (sorry, Leon  ) I surmise he was well aware of the impact of the TS nodes, AND the effect of adding another nodal tweak at the bell. I agree with Marc -- give it a try, and let us know what you find out!
FWIWFM - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley |
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mulligan stew
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Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 1846
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| I will check this out tonight and report back. |
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nowave
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Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 453
Location: brooklyn
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:17 am Post subject: |
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I'll try this as well.
Changing subject slightly:
I've also wondered about mouthpiece gap... how can it be good? GR's site says something along the lines of "too much gap is bad, but too little is worse." This seems counterintuitive, and in fact is the opposite of what Renold Schilke says in this article:
http://www.schilkemusic.com/Archives/SchilkeBrassClinic-.pdf
also, isn't the point of Monette's integrated mouthpiece horns to eliminate the gap altogether? |
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Arainach
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Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 878
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| No, Monette's theory (or so I've understood) is that their horns are built with their mouthpieces specifically in mind. They throw together a mouthpiece and a horn that are supposedly built for each other, and so good that they shouldn't ever be seperated. Myself, if I was ever to spekd $10,000 on a trumpet, I want a removable mouthpiece. |
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drunkiq
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Joined: 16 Aug 2002
Posts: 1117
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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So since this is a Schilke thread and the question on board is about mouthpiece gap I am going to post something written by Karl Hammond (Schilke custom mouthpiece maker and the inventor of the Schilke Symphonic moupiece line).
| Quote: | Custom Mouthpiece Design
By Karl Hammond
Balance vs. Resistance “The Fine Line”
Every mouthpiece should be a balanced combination of blowing freedom with equalized resistance. These features come together to create the ideal mouthpiece and are critical to the efficiency of a player’s set up. Every set up has this “fine line” of freedom and resistance. This occurs when the player finds the center of the pitch along with the desired sound and controlled flexibility. Each player’s “fine line” is different. At Schilke Music, we do not make the assumption this “fine line” is the same for all players or musical situations. Through consultation, our Custom Shop will help assist a player to determine what sound they want and why their current set up doesn’t accomplish this balance.
When a mouthpiece is to “open and free”, the net musical result is usually a loss of control with poor attacks and “cracked” notes. When there is too much resistance in the mouthpiece, the center of the note may be hard to find resulting in a unstable feel. The components of the mouthpiece that help create this balance are the rim, cup, throat, and backbore.
One critical performance variable to address regarding custom mouthpiece work, before discussing the various mouthpiece components, is the “gap” size. The gap refers to the distance created within the trumpet mouthpipe receiver occurring between the end of the mouthpiece and the beginning of the lead pipe. A smaller gap can raise the pitch of the trumpet compromising a player’s accuracy and control. I n instrument is playing flat consistently, the gap could be too large resulting in poor attacks and a lack of focus to the sound. The trumpet shank or stem can be altered to penetrate further into the mouthpipe receiver to raise the pitch rather then alter the inner characteristics of the mouthpiece.
Rim
The rim creates the ultimate feel for the player and is the connection between the equipment and the body
Wider Rims = more comfort/less flexibility. If a rim is too wide the player may experience a “pinched” sound and the loss of attack definition.
Narrow Rims = more flexibility/less comfort. The placement of the rim high point is critical. A more pronounced high point on the rim provides greater flexibility. If the high point is closer to the cup entrance, the rim may feel smaller in diameter to the player, even with the larger cup volume.
The balance between comfort vs. flexibility and ultimately, feel vs. sound is vital to a players success. Finding a rim that gives the player the longest amount of playing time resulting in consistency, comfort, and resonance is desired.
Cup
Deeper Cup = richer, darker tone. More core with less highs in the sound.
Shallower Cup = brighter with high overtones present in the sound.
Regarding cup shapes, bowl cups ten to have more resistance because of the flatter bottom of the cup. The net musical result is a more aggressive sound. The V-cup shape will have an open feel. In order to find a balance between blowing freedom and resistance, V-cup mouthpieces tend to play better with some resistance in the backbore.
Cup diameter is on aspect of the mouthpiece that players use to compare one mouthpiece to another based on personal feel and manufacturer measurements. The diameter will be determined by many variables that pertain to the individual player including embouchure, experience, strength, instrument, and musical style. Wider diameters require more strength to maintain the balanced characteristics of the mouthpiece. The narrower diameter may produce a strained sound without focus and control if a player needs more room.
Backbore
The backbore is essentially an extension of the instrument’s mouthpipe. The tighter tapered backbore will produce brighter, more aggressive sound. A larger backbore will create a darker, thicker sound with greater depth. The backbore is the final variable we work on creating a custom mouthpiece because it will ultimately balance the top part of the mouthpiece (rim & cup) to achieve that “fine line” of blowing freedom with a balanced resistance.
Throat
The throat of the mouthpiece is crucial he the mouthpiece freedom vs. resistance equation. The player needs to understand how resistance impacts their performance. A tighter throat will increase the resistance greatly and lessen the amount of air getting through the mouthpiece. Opening the throat will reduce the resistance in a more extreme way then opening the backbore. When the throat is opened, the amount of air (blowing freedom) will increase therefore darkening the sound creating a larger center to the note. |
[ This Message was edited by: drunkiq on 2004-02-20 15:25 ] |
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mulligan stew
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 1846
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| re: tuning slide vs. tuning bell--I tried a few variations on this as discussed above--I'll be durned if it doesn't affect the blow to have the tuning slide a bit open. The balance of the horn obviously feels a little more forward, and the blow opens up!! weird. I like the feel. Perhaps using the tuning slide, as it lengthens the leadpipe, somehow opens up the feel. I can't tell any negative effect from introducing a gap. I also couldn't tell any intonation differences...but will try it at rehearsal today and see how it feels. |
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