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rjbirnbaum New Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2002 Posts: 10 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:30 am Post subject: |
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PH wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | I had a brand new 190-37 and it was marvelous. If they could make a lightweight one of those, they just made a sale. |
Somewhere on TH there was a comment from someone in the know outlining some of the changes that happened over time in Elkhart from "classic Bachs." One of the was the fact that the metal in the old, prime era Bachs was thinner than the standard weight horns being made in the last 40ish years. The lightweight horns (star bell) were actually the weight of the original design that Mr. Bach created. So, the "new" horns will all be lighter in weight.
BTW, I currently play a lightweight 37 that I picked out at the factory about a decade ago. Laurie Frink also played a 37*.
(The informative comment I found was from OldSchoolEuph in the GOOD serial numbers thread. It is at the top of page 4 in that thread.) |
This is very interesting. I have a 1970 Bach 37 and I've always noticed that it is lighter than newer Bachs and my Yammies. |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:59 am Post subject: |
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rjbirnbaum wrote: |
This is very interesting. I have a 1970 Bach 37 and I've always noticed that it is lighter than newer Bachs and my Yammies. |
My 500xxx Bach 37 from 1999 feels like a boat anchor compared to my Olds Recording. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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Jon Arnold Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 2026
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="kehaulani"]Thanks, Pat. I'll be looking for it.
"I was looking for something more like a Benge and ideally like a Shew, but with the 190-37 sound. The Bach was neither.
When you find a horn that is like this, please let me know. |
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BudBix Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 519 Location: United States
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Any update on when the new Bachs will be released? Something lighter with "the sound" sounds very intriguing. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:24 am Post subject: |
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PH wrote: | ……They are basically developing "new" older Bachs going back to many of the original designs of Vincent Bach but using modern digital manufacturing technology to give greater consistency, etc. It's basically a move back to what made Bach the industry standard for so many decades. |
I’ve had a few conversations with a well known tech who has been working with Bach, he said one goal is the above.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Rashard Ross recently sold two 19072 horns through jlandress. These were most likely the horns. He is currently playing on a 190 with a 65 bell. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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ProAm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 949
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:21 am Post subject: |
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PH wrote: | Jay2015trumpet wrote: | I'm sure the new horns will certainly be worth whatever the asking price is, I just wonder how long the market can sustain inflation. |
I have no doubt that you will be able to buy both a new Bach Bb plus a new Bach C trumpet for less total cost than a new Monette Bb. |
The new Bachs (and Yamahas) are not that far off from Blackburn pricing. |
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trompette229 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2016 Posts: 203
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:46 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Jon Arnold"] kehaulani wrote: | Thanks, Pat. I'll be looking for it.
"I was looking for something more like a Benge and ideally like a Shew, but with the 190-37 sound. The Bach was neither.
When you find a horn that is like this, please let me know. |
The Bach LTS18077 sounds like what you’re looking for |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:19 am Post subject: |
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[quote="trompette229"] Jon Arnold wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | Thanks, Pat. I'll be looking for it.
"I was looking for something more like a Benge and ideally like a Shew, but with the 190-37 sound. The Bach was neither.
When you find a horn that is like this, please let me know. |
The Bach LTS18077 sounds like what you’re looking for |
Thanks, trompette229. I just bought my last horn fir a while. This stuff's got to stop! _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 627 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:36 am Post subject: |
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ProAm wrote: | PH wrote: | Jay2015trumpet wrote: | I'm sure the new horns will certainly be worth whatever the asking price is, I just wonder how long the market can sustain inflation. |
I have no doubt that you will be able to buy both a new Bach Bb plus a new Bach C trumpet for less total cost than a new Monette Bb. |
The new Bachs (and Yamahas) are not that far off from Blackburn pricing. |
Blackburn, Shires, Schagerl Ganschhorn and some of their other rotary horns, Edwards X13, some of the Posseggers, Van Laars, Thane, etc. Don't get me wrong, Bachs and Yammies are great and would be up at the top of my list of horns to try when the redrot in my high school Bach becomes terminal (along with Schilke and Shires), but damn they are entering rarified air pricewise. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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BudBix Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 519 Location: United States
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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:53 am Post subject: |
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I sent a Facebook message to Bach Brass asking when the horns would be for sale and haven’t gotten a response. I suspect it ain’t gonna happen. |
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Jon Kaplan Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2009 Posts: 300 Location: Charlotte, NC
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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:05 am Post subject: |
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BudBix wrote: | I sent a Facebook message to Bach Brass asking when the horns would be for sale and haven’t gotten a response. I suspect it ain’t gonna happen. |
I know these horns are highly anticipated, and I can't wait to see them myself - but please cut Bach some slack, they don't necessarily need to reveal product timelines to customers just because someone asked. They will come when as soon as the company is ready to release them. 🤓🎺 _________________ 2nd Trumpet, Charlotte Symphony Orchestra
2nd Trumpet, Central City Opera Orchestra |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:05 am Post subject: |
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BudBix wrote: | I sent a Facebook message to Bach Brass asking when the horns would be for sale and haven’t gotten a response. I suspect it ain’t gonna happen. |
I doubt that. Much as Charles III is planning a slimmed-down monarchy, I believe we will shortly see a dramatically slimmed-down Bach.
It is understandable that when you put all your eggs in a very few baskets after a hundred years of infinite diversity, you are going to spend as long as it takes to make sure those baskets will hold. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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I'm pretty sure Brad361 and I are on the same wavelength.
Neither of us can say anymore.
R. Tomasek |
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JWG Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2011 Posts: 258
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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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The worst thing that Bach can do is slim down their product line into a "few sizes will fit all" strategy.
The world is trending toward customization; you can custom-order your car, your shoes, and your clothes on line. Trumpets should not differ.
If this new Bach Company thinks that mere endorsements will allow it to thrive, it has erred. The strategy of endorsements always fails in the long run, because what works well for one person only works well for a small percentage of other people. Like a suit, you need a custom fit. Limiting one's offerings analogizes to China's offering its population only Mao Suits from the 50's to the 80's. Eventually, people realized that the one-style of four-pockets, three colors, and half dozen sizes did not fit-all and did not satisfy most peoples' desires and needs for self expression.
The best strategy for the current Bach Company: Educate buyers on how all the parameters of a horn affect the various aspects of playability, revitalize the Build-a-Bach website with all of that information, and require people to custom order their horns in order to give real data about what accomplished players want and actually keep.
I had one custom Bach trumpet and had several horns saved on the Build-a-Bach site when Bach stopped taking orders. I handed down my custom Bach to my son and it still serves him well. I ended up getting Bb and C Flip Oakes horns, because their large bell, large bore, open pipe, and light weight best matched my physical attributes and playing needs . . . needs for which Bach no longer offers a horn since discontinuation of the Selmer Claude Gordon Model Bb and C.
Despite my over 40 years of love for Bach trumpets, I will not likely buy any horns from his "new" Bach company.
After completing his mandatory service in the Austro-Hungarian military, Vincent Bach (a Viennese Austrian) left his job as a mechanical engineer in an elevator company, toured Europe as a traveling virtuoso musician, and fled British imperialist custody to go to the United States aboard the Lusitania during WW1, because he wanted freedom to play and create without the stricture inherent in aristocratic societies. Bach showed no loyalty to the belligerent aristocrats of Austria who triggered WW1 after the assassination of its Arch Duke.
It saddens me to see the legacy of a virtuoso musician and creative mechanical engineer like Vincent Bach ruined by uncreative and anti-intellectual people who appear to value that same stricture and aristocratic-style profits.
Vincent Bach valued understanding the physics of trumpet sound production, valued offering a diversity of options that change sound production, and valued offering customers customization as his company's "shop cards" evidence, all so that people could enjoy making music like he did. Vincent Bach's work was a labor of love that had the personal purpose of fulfillment and the practical purpose of successfully making a living to support his wife and daughter rather than building an empire. Bach grew up in last decades of the age of Austrian imperialism and did not like empires.
Call me an impractical idealist, but I still place my hope in the human spirit. I see this new young generation of musicians as quite passionate, and, due to growing up in a fully digital age, they will demand more customization and more freedom of choice than previous generations of musicians. As with all things, time will tell and either validate my belief in the future of quality custom-ordered trumpets or quash it. _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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I apologize in advance if I took the wrong points away, but…
[quote="]The world is trending toward customization; you can custom-order your car, your shoes, and your clothes on line. Trumpets should not differ[/quote]
I think the premise that the world is trending towards customization is wrong.
I could customize any car order back as long as I has been alive. Think the COPO muscle cars back in the 60’s. But any car could have customizations, one just needed to wait for it to be manufactured instead of driving off the lot the first day. Yet the majority of cars are still sold off physical and internet equivalents of dealer lots using the predetermined model options.
Custom order shoes have been around forever. Literally since shoes were invented. But I bet the majority of shoes by number of pairs sold is greater for stock off the shelf models.
But suffice it to say, I didn’t grow up with the internet and online access to custom makers so I could be wrong.
That said, think of the cost of goods for custom trumpets vs standard models. Even assuming the cost of the materials and labor to assemble a custom and a standard model are equivalent there is a lot of extra man hours spent consulting with the purchaser to gather their needs and working with them iterating through evolutions of the custom design.
Then in order to come close to the number of stock models sold Bach would need to hire many extra expert staff just handle the customer interactions. People qualified to do this are hard to find, as are customers who know enough to express their needs, and would be expensive adding a premium to every instrument sold.
I hope the custom makers continue to thrive, it is good for all of us, but I think Bach would be foolish to focus on custom instruments. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:01 am Post subject: |
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PH wrote: | They are basically developing "new" older Bachs going back to many of the original designs of Vincent Bach but using modern digital manufacturing technology to give greater consistency, etc. It's basically a move back to what made Bach the industry standard for so many decades. |
This concept is problematic, which makes it quite interesting to see what will emerge.
The first consideration is that there were only some 22,000+ horns built to Vincent Bach's concepts. Since then, the million or so 180s and similar horns were built to what Selmer wanted, not Bach - but by sheer weight of numbers, constitute what most people think of as "a Bach". It is Selmer's 180, designed by Bach but to their desires not his, that became the aforementioned standard.
Every year, there are fewer of Bach's ultimate design for his horn, the mid-Mt. Vernons, as new owners keep thinking that they "need to be fixed" and have Charlie Melk put a longer leadpipe on them to tighten the centering characteristic (and make the slide pull look "normal") - at that point, they become Selmer 180s. So to return to Vincent's designs would, among other things, mean a looser centering horn - which "Bach people" will call "squirrelly" (even though its still a lot stronger centering than say a Schilke B, or certainly a Committee).
(For those of us who have to match with others who may not be particularly attentive to a consistent pitch center, those mid-Mt. Vernons are the only Bachs we can use)
Bach didn't just build bells with the 0.020" stock of today's star bells, he built with 0.019", 0.018", 0.016" and even lighter stock - in a multitude of alloys including at least 2 kinds of French brass (low copper). So to return to his designs, what bell weight does one pick? Bach intended choice....
Another aspect of returning to Bach's deigns and the way he did things could easily include outsourcing. The majority of Bach's earlier bell blanks were made by a mix of companies such as Frank, Jay, Gras, and the lion's share in the early years, B&S. In addition to his own valve blocks, he used Blessing, White and Gras blocks. So returning to Vincent's designs could very reasonably include putting a bell spun from a B&S blank on a lightweight Carol block. I doubt the Bach market would respond well to such authenticity.
Then there is the more fundamental matter of bell & leadpipe, which there is no "standard" for Vincent Bach. His own first self-made horn was built light, with a T (todays 1B) bell of "Yellow K' brass, which he noted as being exceptionally "brilliant" in tone - not the "Bach core" concept that would evolve later. On the other hand, one of the most popular of Bach designs in recent decades has been the LR180-72, an interesting horn because it is so dynamic in tonal color depending on other factors, with the ability to be dark and lush if one wishes. So in what direction do you lean to be more inline with the design intent of someone who last designed freely to his own intent in the context of tonal concepts of 65+ years ago, yet appeal to present day tastes?
Finally, there is that word "consistency". One cannot honor the design intent of Vincent Bach, and simultaneously embrace Yamaha's one size fits all approach - nor should one, as Yamaha owns that market. Vincent Bach intended that people try out a number of his horns, and through minor variation in the factors that affect blow, tone, and response, find a perfect fit. Any future product that is 100% consistent in these factors every time would be diametrically opposed to Vincent Bach's design intent.
Then there are the minor details like steel or brass wire, side seam or 7-o'clock, etc. that are some of the most talked-about aspects of the 190s people seem to think are so great today - but are all post-Vincent.
The reality is, that tastes change and technology moves forward. Vincent Bach both understood and embraced this. It is simply not possible to go back to his designs - the art has moved on. Incorporating some of the aspects will appeal to some players - but it will correspondingly alienate others. All players are different, and so no one size will fit all (that's why there are still plenty of people who buy Bachs instead of Yamahas).
New designs? I think Vincent would approve. But a one-size-fits-all retro imitation? He would know better.
Let's hope the new folks at Bach do as well, and see what they come up with. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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BudBix Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 519 Location: United States
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Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:12 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | BudBix wrote: | I sent a Facebook message to Bach Brass asking when the horns would be for sale and haven’t gotten a response. I suspect it ain’t gonna happen. |
I doubt that. Much as Charles III is planning a slimmed-down monarchy, I believe we will shortly see a dramatically slimmed-down Bach.
It is understandable that when you put all your eggs in a very few baskets after a hundred years of infinite diversity, you are going to spend as long as it takes to make sure those baskets will hold. |
I wonder how slimmed down. If it's to make the best example of the popular bell/bore/weight options that's wise. We had the 180 series which was supposed to be the top, then came Artisan which didn't have the success of the Yamaha Artist series. Then the 190 Anniversary series which was more successful. I fear whatever is released some people will be disappointed because the horns won't play like they expect given the history of changes you outlined. Plus Bach is in the unenviable position of trying to live up to a mystique about the brand.
I suppose they don't owe little old me an answer but I'm a serious buyer if the new models live up to the hype in this thread but I still think all bets are off because the longer it takes the more chances there are for management to screw it up.
Last edited by BudBix on Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:41 am; edited 2 times in total |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:55 am Post subject: |
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I think it could be a positive thing. Honestly, they may have figured out that some subset of their audience is people who will collect multiple trumpets. They may also be trying to reach niche audiences. I would guess they've lost market share to new makers and custom lines. They may be responding to Yamaha. Yesterday I was at a Yamaha store that had all the models: Xenos, the Custom series, the Miyarshiro and Shrew models, several 4000-5000 lines, etc., etc. I'm pretty happy with two Bachs (one very worn) but if I fell in love with a Mariachi or Artisan, I might buy it. |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 907
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Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:27 am Post subject: |
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the mid-Mt. Vernons, as new owners keep thinking that they "need to be fixed" and have Charlie Melk put a longer leadpipe on them to tighten the centering characteristic (and make the slide pull look "normal") - at that point, they become Selmer 180s. So to return to Vincent's designs would, among other things, mean a looser centering horn - which "Bach people" will call "squirrelly" (even though its still a lot stronger centering than say a Schilke B, or certainly a Committee).
(For those of us who have to match with others who may not be particularly attentive to a consistent pitch center, those mid-Mt. Vernons are the only Bachs we can use)[quote="OldSchoolEuph"
Again with the Mt. Vernon lead pipe swap. As someone who uses a large bore Mt. Vernon and Schilke B3 on a daily basis depending on the situation, my observations run counter to the above. My Mt. Vernon LB 25 was purchased used but in original condition including original lacquer and shows no signs of ever having been repaired, other than the lead pipe change. The sound is unmistakable but with the original lead pipe the horn was virtually unplayable. Now that it has a Dr. Valve lead pipe, the sound has not changed, but the intonation and playability has, and for the better, much better. I also have what the author calls a "Selmer 180" LB 25 as a backup. Are the horns similar? Yes. Has the new lead pipe on the Mt. Vernon turned it into a Selmer 180? Not at all. The horns clearly share the same DNA, but there is no mistaking one for the other.
The author then goes on to describe how Vincent Bach used different metals for the bells, different metal thicknesses, etc. as some kind of argument against the suggestion that the Bach factory can and will begin a program to re-create earlier designs. I also own a 1931 large bore Bach and along with the two LB 25's and I also have a regular weight ML 72. All are very different horns. The construction is different, the bracing is different, the weights are different. And yet there is something similar with all of them. That Bach DNA runs through all of them. There is no mistaking any of them as anything other than a Bach. To my way of thinking, the transitions from New York to Mt. Vernon to Elkhart have more to do with Vincent Bach's evolution in design rather than merely changing direction.
Now about this notion regarding loose centering. Obviously, this is subjective. I have never found any of my Bachs to be particularly loose. And contrary to the author's opinion, none of my Schilke B3's or B2's, have particularly loose centers, and certainly not looser than a Bach. Does my Martin Committee have a loose center? Absolutely and that is part of what makes it special.
As far as the author needing a loose centering horn "to match with others who may not be particularly attentive to a consistent pitch center", my approach would be the opposite. I don't always get to play with "A list players" and rather than alter my playing to match any player's inconsistencies, I try to play as consistently as possible and allow some of the less experienced players I play with try to match me. It's certainly less taxing for me, in the long run I think better for the less experienced player, and certainly better for the section. |
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