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matthes93401
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Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 641
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 Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:53 pm Post subject: Blueprinting-like services |
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Greetings,
Over the years on TH, I've read about various services that expert brass techs perform on trumpets, including the Osmun Blueprinting. I'm not sure if Mr. Becker is still there or monitors this forum any more.
I have a custom CarolBrass Bb trumpet. I don't believe it's put together as well as my CarolBrass Cornet or C trumpet. Those later two are great instruments.
While there's always more resistance between certain notes on just about every trumpet (C to D in the staff and E to F, for example), this trumpet seems to have greater resistance in those instances. The valve alignment appears fine.
Are there common causes for the above concern, like misaligned slides or mouthpiece receiver. I do have a good local tech, but I thought I'd consult TH before approaching him.
Appreciate your insights. |
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Jerry
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Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 2163
Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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James Becker left Osmun for a position with Yamaha in New York City.
Thoughts:
1) You could have your local tech take a look and give you his opinion.
2) You could always send your horn to any of the other techs that get high praises here on TH. Letting us know where you are located would let us know who would be close to your location. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3309
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Blueprinting-like services |
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| matthes93401 wrote: | | ... The valve alignment appears fine. ... |
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My view about alignment is if there a significant 'sound quality' differences among the various valve combination then alignment should be considered and play tested. Of course there will be some sound differences, but if a particular valve causes a 'gee that does not seem right' reaction, then more investigation is warranted.
Trying to judge by 'appearance' can be misleading, especially when you consider the alignment of the other ports and pathways involved with that valve.
Simple up/down alignment changes can be made by slightly unscrewing the valve button, and by unscrewing the top valve cap.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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matthes93401
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 641
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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I'm located in the Sacramento, CA area.
| Jerry wrote: | James Becker left Osmun for a position with Yamaha in New York City.
Thoughts:
1) You could have your local tech take a look and give you his opinion.
2) You could always send your horn to any of the other techs that get high praises here on TH. Letting us know where you are located would let us know who would be close to your location. |
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matthes93401
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 641
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Blueprinting-like services |
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The "gee that does not seem right" reaction involves the first valve transitions. The mechanism works great. It's the perceived discontinuity in note transition that's odd.
| JayKosta wrote: | | matthes93401 wrote: | | ... The valve alignment appears fine. ... |
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My view about alignment is if there a significant 'sound quality' differences among the various valve combination then alignment should be considered and play tested. Of course there will be some sound differences, but if a particular valve causes a 'gee that does not seem right' reaction, then more investigation is warranted.
Trying to judge by 'appearance' can be misleading, especially when you consider the alignment of the other ports and pathways involved with that valve.
Simple up/down alignment changes can be made by slightly unscrewing the valve button, and by unscrewing the top valve cap. |
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yourbrass
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3636
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| matthes93401 wrote: | I'm located in the Sacramento, CA area.
| Jerry wrote: | James Becker left Osmun for a position with Yamaha in New York City.
Thoughts:
1) You could have your local tech take a look and give you his opinion.
2) You could always send your horn to any of the other techs that get high praises here on TH. Letting us know where you are located would let us know who would be close to your location. |
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Tim's Music, Scott Mandeville. He's a fine repairman and would tell you the truth about what he could do. Just saw him at the Yamaha clinic along with Mr. Becker, who's very happy at the NY Yamaha Atelier.
I worked on a Frankenhorn for a regular client that had a CarolBrass valve section and there were some problems that I had to fix.
-Lionel
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https://yourbrass.com/ |
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oliver king
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Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 1742
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Bryan Morgan at Best Instrument Repair in Oakland is another excellent repairman to consider.
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Andy Cooper
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1833
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Just for clarification - are you using the same mouthpiece for C trumpet as Bb?
Also - are your trumpets of similar bore size? .459-.462
So if you were using a Wick 4 on cornet, a Bach 3 with #24 backbore on C and a Schilke 14A4A on Bb trumpet - you could expect some challenges.
Probably what's happening is that those notes are out of tune on your Bb set up and you are automatically playing them up or down to pitch. That's why they don't feel right.
The upstroke alignment could contribute to this - that alignment is not visible on most trumpets without an alignment mirror or a small camera.
If those notes are naturally flat even when aligned, you might try a short shank trumpet backbore - generally used on C trumpets.
As suggested by the posters above, just take it to a good brass tech for evaluation and alignment. |
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matthes93401
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 641
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:22 am Post subject: |
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No, I used dedicated C mouthpiece for C trumpet, Bb for Bb, cornet for cornet. All instruments are the 0.465 bore.
Holding the instruments in your hand, you can see that the cornet and C trumpet were assembled more skillfully. The Bb appears to have been assembled by a less skilled person even though all instruments are CarolBrass.
| Andy Cooper wrote: | Just for clarification - are you using the same mouthpiece for C trumpet as Bb?
Also - are your trumpets of similar bore size? .459-.462
So if you were using a Wick 4 on cornet, a Bach 3 with #24 backbore on C and a Schilke 14A4A on Bb trumpet - you could expect some challenges.
Probably what's happening is that those notes are out of tune on your Bb set up and you are automatically playing them up or down to pitch. That's why they don't feel right.
The upstroke alignment could contribute to this - that alignment is not visible on most trumpets without an alignment mirror or a small camera.
If those notes are naturally flat even when aligned, you might try a short shank trumpet backbore - generally used on C trumpets.
As suggested by the posters above, just take it to a good brass tech for evaluation and alignment. |
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Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1833
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| matthes93401 wrote: | No, I used dedicated C mouthpiece for C trumpet, Bb for Bb, cornet for cornet. All instruments are the 0.465 bore.
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Humor me - try your Bb trumpet with your C trumpet mouthpiece. Any improvement? |
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matthes93401
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Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 641
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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You might be implying a mouthpiece gap effect. If I use a mouthpiece with sleeve set for minimal gap, the transition resistance between notes is less as expected. So at least that feature is normal.
When I try a C trumpet mouthpiece in this Bb trumpet, it is slightly easier across notes. Would that be attributed to its shorter length and therefore more freeblowing nature, or is there something about the length of the receiver?
Thanks, -Ethan
| Andy Cooper wrote: | | matthes93401 wrote: | No, I used dedicated C mouthpiece for C trumpet, Bb for Bb, cornet for cornet. All instruments are the 0.465 bore.
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Humor me - try your Bb trumpet with your C trumpet mouthpiece. Any improvement? |
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Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1833
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| matthes93401 wrote: |
When I try a C trumpet mouthpiece in this Bb trumpet, it is slightly easier across notes. Would that be attributed to its shorter length and therefore more freeblowing nature, or is there something about the length of the receiver?
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What mouthpiece are you using on your Bb?
What mouthpiece are you using on your C?
While gap could be an issue - throat size and backbore shape need to be considered. Trumpets in general have tuning problems. If you have a mouthpiece that has "wider" slots (bigger sweet spot) it's easier to play an out of tune note in tune almost automatically. Larger throat sizes, larger backbores, reduced gap can all contribute to this. Some players feel that O rings on one or more bottom valve caps, that prevent the cap from being totally tightened down, can loosen up the horn.
We have some mouthpiece makers on TH - they can give you a better explaination. |
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matthes93401
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 641
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Andy,
In response to your mouthpiece question:
Bb = Monette B4Ss2 classic resonance, C = Monette C4Ss2 classic resonance
| Andy Cooper wrote: | | matthes93401 wrote: |
When I try a C trumpet mouthpiece in this Bb trumpet, it is slightly easier across notes. Would that be attributed to its shorter length and therefore more freeblowing nature, or is there something about the length of the receiver?
|
What mouthpiece are you using on your Bb?
What mouthpiece are you using on your C?
While gap could be an issue - throat size and backbore shape need to be considered. Trumpets in general have tuning problems. If you have a mouthpiece that has "wider" slots (bigger sweet spot) it's easier to play an out of tune note in tune almost automatically. Larger throat sizes, larger backbores, reduced gap can all contribute to this. Some players feel that O rings on one or more bottom valve caps, that prevent the cap from being totally tightened down, can loosen up the horn.
We have some mouthpiece makers on TH - they can give you a better explaination. |
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Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1833
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
In response to your mouthpiece question:
Bb = Monette B4Ss2 classic resonance, C = Monette C4Ss2 classic resonance
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I would simply e-mail Monette and explain the problem. Give them the models of Bb and C trumpets you use and the Monette mouthpieces you use.
Explain that the C mouthpiece seems to help some of the problems on your Bb and that you do not experience the problem with your C trumpet and C trumpet mouthpiece.
Still before you lay out money for a new mouthpiece, get a tech to check your upstoke valve alignment that is not easily visible. |
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