I Do NOT Understand Yet

Lex Grantham · Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:14 pm Post subject:

There seems to be the issue of "spit" buzzing versus "buzzing" the lips.

I think most of us were told many years ago that free buzzing, mouthpiece buzzing, and playing with mouthpiece and horn all had their moments within the scope of improving our trumpet (or other brass) playing.

No doubt (according to SC/TCE instructions), the "spit" buzz is the primary focus for getting anywhere with the technique, as the very essence of SC/TCE depends on it. Different people talk about needing to do it, however with some lack of specifics needed to clarify what should be done to accomplish the task.

I have even heard that one should not try to buzz the lips...instead do a "spit" buzz and the lips buzzing will become a secondary function as a result. How does one buzz "without" the lips? That really is a confusing idea.

And then the lower lip can now be regarded less than it used to be because of its lesser importance in the SC/TCE scheme of things?

Just how are these features to be developed without more complete (detailed) instructions for proper practice?

I have had the Trumpet Secrets book for a long while, but a close look at the pictures of the lips and tongue seem to very a bit from drawing to drawing...merely my observation. If I am not approaching the meanings of the diagrams properly, I should probably know that, too.

If anyone has additional suggestions for improving these issues, I will be very pleased and grateful for your comments. I just have not found the secret as quickly as maybe some of you have.

Thank you and sincerely,

Lex Grantham

[ This Message was edited by: Lex Grantham on 2004-01-17 22:19 ]

tptguy · Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:50 pm Post subject:

Though it's true that each individual will develop at a different rate, I've often said that no one should spend a number of years on any system if they aren't getting regular, continuous improvement. In my experience, when SC is being done right then distinct improvement is clear most every week if not every day. I would say this, if a person is taking regular lessons from Mr. Callet, live or by phone, and the progress isn't clearly there after 6 months then it's time to take a step back. Perhaps study classical phrasing or jazz improv with a local teacher for a couple of months. Or, relax with a combo or concert band for a little while. Then, when the head clears, start the lessons with Jerry again. I would bet that anyone struggling with SC is really struggling with older bad habits ingrained by diligent practice of prior teaching. The more diligent, the harder to unlearn. It's not that SC is hard, but "unlearning" can be very hard. However, Jerry can spot the old habits in an instant and keep you steered in the right direction.

Lex, it also appears you have the beginnings of some good probing questions about previous threads in here too. Perhaps phrase those as questions on the relevant prior threads and we'll be able to work through those. You may find that very helpful. It's worth a shot, and good for everyone.

Best regards, Kyle

Dave Converse · Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:49 pm Post subject:

<<How does one buzz "without" the lips?>>

Lex, you know my take on this from our other discussions on this matter. One doesn't "buzz without the lips." The lips do buzz. I think the TCE focus is on the lips pressing into the tongue rather than together, but they will buzz and press together the proper amount with this focus. Now, maybe someone can play well with the top lip just buzzing on the top of the tongue. But I suspect this to be rare because of the lack of compression most of us would get that way. I've studied Jerry's book as you have, and I've never gotten any sense that he's suggesting we NOT buzz the lips together..............just that we not make it a point to try focus on it. Maybe there are some other thoughts out there we can share. Dave

tptguy · Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:44 pm Post subject:

"how does one buzz without the lips"

There was a pretty extensive discussion of this on our recent thread "Tongue replaces lower lip?". A number of players, including myself, gave their perspectives or opinions on this. It might be helpful to refer back to that thread. And, I would encourage anyone that has more thoughts on the subject to post questions there. As Lex has touched on many recent threads in this post, it might get quite confusing if we try to rehash those varied threads in this one post. Just my 2 cents. Best regards, Kyle

goldenhornplayer · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:05 am Post subject:

Maybe this little thought will help to clear things up regarding buzzing; I have always heard, and I believe it's true, that it takes two surfaces to create a vibration. Simply passing air over a single surface doesn't get us too far and, in addition, we can't create any compression of the air stream that way. This leads to the obvious next question which is, what are the two surfaces? In TCE, the two surfaces are the top of the tongue and the bottom, inside area of the top lip. That's where the air stream is being focused and compressed and, as a result, that's also where the "working" vibration takes place. There may be some so-called "sympathetic" vibration occuring in the bottom lip just because of the proximity of it but the good vibration or what I'm now referring to as the "working" vibration is between the top lip and tongue. As we've previously mentioned, Jerome steers us away from making the buzz a concious effort. Rather, he encourages the spit buzz which, perhaps in name itself, misleads us somewhat. The spit buzz is really a sudden release of air which just happens to result in a vibration if everything is in the right place. What Jerome hates is an attack that sounds more like a "do-ah" than a "pow". Please excuse my poor word analogies but here is what we're saying; to initiate an attack by trying to buzz first results in this do-ah kind of sound, whereas to be thinking more of the sudden release of air (spit buzz) results in the much improved sharp attack. Once you're concious of the difference, you'll be looking for it as you listen to world class players. The strength and power of TCE all starts with being able to block and release the air with the tongue and that is why it truly is the Tongue Controlled Embouchure.

histrumpet · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:56 am Post subject:

There seems to be much confusion when Callet's method(s) are discussed. Why is Lex G. confused? The following may appear to be an ugly attack but having been the recipient of some less than accurate information I feel compelled to make these observations. As posted by Ken Barnes....

In TCE, the two surfaces are the top of the tongue and the bottom, inside area of the top lip. That's where the air stream is being focused and compressed and, as a result, that's also where the "working" vibration takes place. There may be some so-called "sympathetic" vibration occuring in the bottom lip just because of the proximity of it but the good vibration or what I'm now referring to as the "working" vibration is between the top lip and tongue.

........At this point the bottom lip is out of the picture......_________________

On the subject of the function of the bottom lip, he clearly has told me to think of my tongue taking the place of the bottom lip, in that the compression of the air stream and ultimately the vibration should be between the tongue and top lip.

.....At this point Jerry has given a visualization technique to be used. Thinking does not always mean doing.....

In fact, during my three days with Jerome at Christmas, he explained that to create the vibration between the top and bottom lips was really complicating the technique and that I needed to take the bottom lip even more out of play.

.....At this point the vibration is now between the top and bottom lips again.....

We always have soft tissue in compression against soft tissue. It's Jerome's belief that when you press the lips against something hard, like your teeth, stamina is decreased.

.....Soft tissue meaning the lips? The tongue is a muscle so this must be in reference to the lips.....

In short, the tongue took over the previous function of the bottom lip. Now, Jerome will clearly say to never press your lips together. To do so forces the tongue backward and anything that causes the tongue to move backward is very, very bad.

.....Now the lower lip is out of the picture again. What happens when you point your tongue down?.....

So now I can see why Lex G. is confused.

[ This Message was edited by: histrumpet on 2004-01-19 14:39 ]

histrumpet · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:50 am Post subject:

After some thought I feel that I may have a reason for Lex G's excessive saliva production. If you use your tongue in the manner prescribed in some of the above posts, you will be spitting into the horn thus creating the spit collecting in your horn and/or running down your chin.

goldenhornplayer · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:25 pm Post subject:

What part of compressing the air between the tongue and top lip is difficult to understand? Is it really so difficult to see, in that situation, why the bottom lip is secondary? Of course, the bottom lip can't be taken completely out of the equation since it remains on your face. My point was to focus on the top lip and tongue. If I mislead by the statement of "taking the bottom lip out of the equation", certainly I apologize. Perhaps it would have been better to simply de-emphasize the function of the bottom lip. I had no idea that someone would take my meaning this way. In fact, in looking back I did mention that the bottom lip was useful as an anchoring point for the tip of the tongue.

tptguy · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:09 pm Post subject:

Perhaps a reminder of Ken's earlier warning is in need here. Ken clearly warned that a particular technique or emphasis that is being given to him in a private lesson is not necessarily the same as a universal principle that we all should start applying blindly to our own particular situations. Through my years of study with Jerry, he has given many, many varied techniques to address specific problems I was having. As the conflict btw lower lip and my "snaggletooth" has always been my worst nemesis, issues of the lower lip have always been of mucho importance in my lessons and exercises. If I followed Ken's lesson plan for myself I'd be in overwhelming trouble in a hurry. No doubt that's why Jerry directs me differently.

Short of taking lessons with Jerry, the TCE is the 'universal' instruction guide. Surely, if you take private lessons with him, he will customize regularly to your needs of the moment. If a player, as noted before, is struggling for a long time with the universal guide then I would advise them to bite the bullet and take personal lessons or, at the very least, a breather. Maybe after the head clears the universal guide will make new sense. But in the end, we'll all end up in the same place, TCE. And I'll restate the strong belief that I posted on the original thread, the lower lip will operate as described and intended (not overdone) in original SC. We are just getting at it in a different way. Best regards, Kyle

Lex Grantham · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:43 pm Post subject:

<<Short of taking lessons with Jerry, the TCE is the 'universal' instruction guide.>>

I have some questions about the "universal guide":

1) On page 10 of the Trumpet Secrets book, I will quote the following statement:

"...tongue pressure is constantly maintained to the teeth on the sides (see Illustration B)."

I look at Illustration B (page 11), and I see NO tongue against the teeth on the sides???

2) On page 22, it is stated ;

"Even when you are articulating, the sides of the tongue will grip the inside edges of the top teeth."

The accompanying Illustration F does not show how the tongue should grip the inside edges of the top teeth.

These are the types of questions that players are going have...statements that may not make any sense if the drawings
provided do not indicate what is being discussed.

It surely might have helped if the artist had drawn some other illustrations from the front of the model's face intead of just from the side.

But HOW is a person supposed to interpret (correctly) what is intended here? I think many have found that SC/TCE is difficult enough without additional guesswork.

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham

[ This Message was edited by: Lex Grantham on 2004-01-20 09:43 ]

goldenhornplayer · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:55 am Post subject:

First, to Kyle... As always I appreciate and value your comments and observations. On the bottom lip function subject, I hope we all agree that, with TCE, it is incorrect to press the lips together. This is clearly stated in the TS book and I have been reminded repeatedly by Jerome not to do it. It seems to me, at least, that the TCE approach is significantly different from the earlier SC approach in that respect, don't you agree? Now, in TCE, it's the tongue doing the pushing and not the bottom lip.

Second, to Lex... I agree with your last post completely. As I was involved with Jerry in writing the TS book, one of the things that was off limits to my input were the drawings as well as the explanations on the drawings pages. I think Kyle would agree that Jerry's illustrations do have the potential to be misleading if you don't understand the point he is trying to make. It strikes me that Jerry's style is to exaggerate certain features, to make a particular point, and some of the drawings were not in total agreement with the descriptions, as Lex points out. It's a little like once you really "get it", you can look back and better undersand what Jerome was trying to get across. It's as if the normal player, trying to learn TCE, simply can't do this all at once. He has to take baby steps to finally be able to play correctly. Jerome often has a student exaggerate doing a particular thing to get past an old bad habit. Admittedly, this can lead to some confusion but it's probably the best way to learn the TCE.

oj · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:03 am Post subject:

Good post Ken!

I have had "Trumpet Secrets" for a year, but I'm not able the really get all the secrets from that book alone. Bert in Holland who had lessons with Jerry in Germany, sent me a CD where he did spit-buzz (+ other things). After that, I also got a better grip on that. But, when I talked to Jerry on the phone, he said I did it too hard. He domonstrated how I should to do it - with more finesse. This really speeded up my development. I guess what Bert learnt was the initial "exaggerated version" of spit-buzz.

Hopefully, I will meet Jerry in Denmark in March and get more into TCE. A book alone will not do. But, when you know some of the basics (from real in person instructions) the book will be an excellent resource.

Perhaps you should get some TCE lessons, Lex?

Jeff Smiley's book, B.E., is in my opinion a better self help book than T.S. But look at that forum. There are lot's of posts from people asking for help. The companion CD is of great help for all doing B.E. - still someone don't get it.

Hopefully soon, someone will produce basic exercises for TCE with sound and visual demonstrations. That will be of great help, but lessons with Jerry or (so far) one of the few others who really master SC/TCE will always be much better. This is so obvious, that it is kind of stupid even to say it here...

Ole

tptguy · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:39 am Post subject:

<<It seems to me, at least, that the TCE approach is significantly different from the earlier SC approach in that respect, don't you agree? Now, in TCE, it's the tongue doing the pushing and not the bottom lip. >>

I think the confusion that we have is more in regard to SC than TCE. I completely agree that the tongue does the majority of compression in TCE. I totally disagree that the lips were intended to do the primary compression in SC. In fact, this is the central point that completely differentiates BE from SC, a point that I know countless students of both systems have missed. As Jerry has said to me countless times, the compression is done "in the mouth" before the air hits the lips. This is equally true for SC and TCE; Jerry told me this years before TCE existed. To quote SC directly, "The air is being made to squeeze around the teeth and lips! This is exactly what gives you the greatest resistance to the air column, eventually giving much greater results than any other method of playing..." It was this central misunderstanding of SC that Jerry worked so hard to address in the "Secrets" book. Of course, Jerry had learned so much more by the time of TCE that he felt he could really express it much better by then. Best regards, Kyle

tptguy · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:42 am Post subject:

<<This is so obvious, that it is kind of stupid even to say it here... >>

Hey, I represent that stupid remark! - Kyle :>)

tptguy · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:53 am Post subject:

<<I think Kyle would agree that Jerry's illustrations do have the potential to be misleading if you don't understand the point he is trying to make.>>

Ken and I have discussed this quite extensively in the past. We each have many Jerry-drawn diagrams that clarify one point, as he intended, but can be seen to cloud other points, unintended. I think Ken will agree that the professinal drawings in "Secrets" are by far the best ever. But still, they do not and probably cannot provide the total explanation by themselves. That is one good reason we are so lucky to have this great forum to "flush out" the ideas. Nonetheless, look at how many times our own "explanations" have created unexpected misunderstandings. It's a tough job! - Kyle

Jerry Freedman · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:55 am Post subject:

Kyle, you quoted from the SC book:
"To quote SC directly, "The air is being made to squeeze around the teeth and lips! This is exactly what gives you the greatest resistance to the air column, eventually giving much greater results than any other method of playing..." It was this central misunderstanding of SC that Jerry worked so hard to address in the "Secrets" book. Of course, Jerry had learned so much more by the time of TCE that he felt he could really express it much better by then. Best regards, Kyle "

That paragraph is in explanation of the picture where the lips meet along the top teeth, above where the aperture would be in a conventional embouchure, so the air has to go around the top teeth and up again to get out through the lips. This is quite different from the pictures and explanation in TCE where Callet apparently changes the path from down around and up the top teeth to through the tongue and upper lip. Each path can be quite long and contribute a lot to compression but they are not the same path.

Jerry Freedman

goldenhornplayer · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:06 am Post subject:

Well, Kyle, you have disclosed something to me that I really did not know before. That is the point you made about SC not teaching compression between the lips. As you know, I came along about the time Jerome was going the TCE route and don't have the history with him that you do. When it comes to Trumpet Yoga vs. SC vs. TCE, and how they relate and compare, I totally defer to you. I know and understand TCE and that's all.

When I have heard people speak of SC, the older, previous book from Jerome, I always heard the term center compression used. I assumed that meant compression resulting from squeezing the lips together and from chin bunching which aided in that. Jerome's pictures on page 5 of the SC book clearly show, with arrows, the top and bottom lips being pressed together. I think he actually refered to allowing the bottom lip to come up on the top teeth. That again was the result of the chin bunch. Apparently, some players overdid that aspect and Jerome sought other ways of presenting his technique to prevent anolmalies of what he was really trying to teach. All of this I'm describing is simply what Jerome has told me as I have questioned him on the various techniques. As you know, all during this time of various books and pictures, Jerome has continued to evolve his technique into more efficient and powerful methods. Now, if you ask Jerome, he says don't bunch the chin and definitely don't press the lips together. That being the case, how can you say things haven't really changed that much?

Lex Grantham · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:16 am Post subject:

Does anyone have a clear explanation of the following statement to which I referred in the TCE book? Does anyone know?

"Even when you are articulating, the sides of the tongue will grip the inside edges of the top teeth."

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham

fzr Phil · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:34 pm Post subject:

a little bit like 'anchor' tonguing as you might have seen it described elsewhere in pedagological space-time

the idea that the tongue leverages off the top of the lower teeth as well as behind the lip(s)
the more stable/ stationary the tongue can remain in the mouth, (gripped against lower teeth) consistency can be attained, as the point of articulation (ignition of buzz) occurs at the bevelled top surface on the tongue and inside of the top lip (in front of the upper teeth)
-Also it opens the jaw and reduces jaw movement. it becomes the embouchure that controls and not jaw position.

this powerful ignition ( spit buzz attack) starts the whole vibration of the lip(s)/embouchure- the meat in the mouthpiece.

the embouchure compression provides the damping to prevent too much aperture and allow just enough that is required (efficiency)

i know we keep discussing not lip on lip
but i believe it is still relevent! especially before the development occurs of the strong spitt buzz attack. and especially if your background is with an 'open' setting. if you have been used to creating a round hole apeture then it is the centre compression that closes and controls the aperture.

imagine like a sine wave, it begins at zero displacement i.e lips together,

with sc/ tce the embouchure and lips eventually become one continuous system, the aperture instead of being focused in one spot becomes the entire buzzing surface of the lips/lip-tongue interface. that is how you get big sound out of teeny mouthpieces.

hope this all adds to the help (despite my poor grammar!)
regards

err just re-read your question lex, about gripping TOP teeth,
if your tongue is well forward and big in the front of your mouth then it also happens to be against your top teeth too.
as a determined effort is made to articulate against the front (top surface) of the tongue, also an effort is made to keep the tongue forward and full in the mouth- gripping {pressing} against top teeth AND levering against lower teeth/ lip.

hows that?
_________________
Phil Martin
-dedication, thats what you need....
Besson 600 trumpet - GR NB63***
Besson 928 sovereign Cornet - GR NB63*** #7 (also #5 and #8 avail)
yamaha pro 631 Flugel
Tilbury Band

[ This Message was edited by: fzr Phil on 2004-01-20 16:46 ]

histrumpet · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:33 pm Post subject:

Ken, I think you have me confused with Lex, I understand a pretty fair amount of this stuff. You know, this thread has brought up a question. Lex G. has been working hard but still has not progressed as much as he would like. If I am correct after going through and reading posts from the past Ken, you have been Callet student for about 3 years. I would like to know what your performance range is after taking 3 years of lessons exclusively from Jerry Callet. Is your progress typical of a 3 year student?