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Trumpetstud Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2021 Posts: 208
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:00 am Post subject: Great Range |
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When someone talks about range (not triple c etc) what is a “good range” that you could be able to play anything in front of you (jazz) |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:09 am Post subject: |
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To be an adequate lead trumpet you need a reliable A. That's the space above four ledger lines _________________ Bill Bergren |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:03 am Post subject: |
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As BILLY said ... for a pro player who needs to 'get it done' and get hired often.
For adult amateur, my guess is that a reliable high C or D would be adequate for most situations to 'play the songs', but perhaps not 'dazzle the crowd'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Unless you aspire to play lead I'd hazard that a solid D above the staff with the ability to go a bit higher from time to time would suffice for an awful lot. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:31 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | Unless you aspire to play lead I'd hazard that a solid D above the staff with the ability to go a bit higher from time to time would suffice for an awful lot. |
I agree. I have only been called on to even play a high C on the rare occasion. Lots of G's, A's and B's, though.
George _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2054 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I play first trumpet in our community orchestra and my music goes up to high C in quite a few pieces but not throughout the whole piece. Often, this is more of an „accent“ type thing. Lots (!) of high B, Bb, A, and Ab, though. Seems to be in line with what others have posted before. I can play up to high E, so my Cs are usually pretty safe if warmed up properly and it’s not snowing on a gig. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 652
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Your highest note is not the same as your working range. There are plenty of people who can play double C's, but very few that have clean articulation and solid time, and even fewer who can solo. If you're interested in playing jazz, a reliable high C is probably sufficient. Playing anything above that is a matter of musical taste rather than necessity. The range up to high C is sometimes called the "cash register", because that's where 95% of music is written, even on lead trumpet charts. If you don't have a G above high C, maybe you can't take the last note of the big band chart up an octave, but that's much less important than playing the ensemble sections in time and in tune. |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2047 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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I'm assuming that when you say "jazz" you mean big band-type jazz. You'd typically have considerable discretion in a small combo. I looked through 123 first trumpet parts and transcriptions of first parts arranged for professional big bands. Here's how they break down:
Below high C - 3
High C - 7
High C#/Db - 5
High D - 17
High D#/Eb - 18
High E - 35
High F - 15
High F#/Gb - 5
High G - 13
High G#/Ab - 1
High A - 4
Above high A - 0
And, of course, a chart that "only" goes up to E might have lots of Cs and Ds. So it isn't just whether you can play an F or a G, but whether you can do so solidly after playing 20 high Cs, Ds and Ebs....
Edit: I had a chance to look over more charts and transcriptions of first parts, so have updated the list. If I was looking at a part, I omitted any optional 8va. Lots of arrangers and lots of bands, none of them Goodwin or Kubis.
Last edited by Dayton on Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Dayton wrote: | I'm assuming that when you say "jazz" you mean big band-type jazz. You'd typically have considerable discretion in a small combo. I looked through 76 first trumpet parts arranged for professional big bands. Here's how they break down:
Below high C - 2
High C - 4
High C#/Db - 5
High D - 12
High D#/Eb - 7
High E - 25
High F - 10
High F#/Gb - 2
High G - 7
High G#/Ab - 0
High A - 2
Above high A - 0
And, of course, a chart that "only" goes up to E might have lots of Cs and Ds. So it isn't just whether you can play an F or a G, but whether you can do so solidly after playing 20 high Cs, Ds and Ebs.... |
To my earlier point, I trust the lead book makes for most of those high notes with the lower parts routinely (though not always) a third lower.
It goes without saying that the expectation will be very different if you're considering arrangements by Nestico and Wolpe versus Goodwin and Kubis. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | ="JayKosta"
For adult amateur, my guess is that a reliable high C or D would be adequate for most situations to 'play the songs', but perhaps not 'dazzle the crowd'. |
At the end of a two hour 4th of July concert - hot with mosquitoes - still be able play a solid high C (2nd line C above the staff) for about 8 counts. |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Before seeing Dayton's post I would have guessed that you can get by with a solid E that you own and can play musically on the last note of a normal concert. But to Billy's point I have run across a whole lot of G's above high C, i see why he is saying A. _________________ Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)
GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345 |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 985
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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G, A like what you see being mentioned here is what people have said for many years.
Also whatever note it is its worth mentioning that
whatever note is at the top of your playable range…
…needs to be played like all of the other notes in your range
In tune
In style
Appropriate dynamic
Articulated correctly
End the note on time
Played musically
Etc.
Noone wants to hear the guy that is struggling
10 cents sharp on the d
15 cents flat on the g
Articulating horribly
Not playing with the right sound for the style etc.
Yeah get the notes but you did say
“Play anything put in front of you” |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="cheiden"] Dayton wrote: | I'm assuming that when you say "jazz" you mean big band-type jazz. You'd typically have considerable discretion in a small combo. I looked through 76 first ….
It goes without saying that the expectation will be very different if you're considering arrangements by Nestico and Wolpe versus Goodwin and Kubis. |
Yep I have found the lead parts on Goodwin music are beyond anything I’ve ever heard played prior to hearing them and would be written for very specific players or be clearly labeled as hazardous to even most studio players. I have to believe that some of this is optional and I can’t see some of the songs being played in a set together! I doubt this band could do a 3 hr. gig stringing such heavy charts together but I don’t know if they tour. I’ve never seen a discography so I don’t even know who plays lead-high, Bergeron, Ingram, Dowedsdell or some other godlike player??
Rod |
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deleted_user_34face8 Guest
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:43 am Post subject: |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:31 am Post subject: |
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I've been lucky enough to see the Tom Kubis big band live a good number of times. His lead book is a lot like Goodwin's. And I've seen a number of lead players (including Wayne) nail one crazy high chart after the other all night long. And I've read a fair number of these charts and the high notes written don't really lend themselves to 8vb. They really need a player who can play up to G at least a time or two in a chart. The guy on second needs some high-note facility too. The lower books are usually more manageable. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Did we mention that the range limit is contingent upon what you want to use it for? If we did, I apologize. And BTW, there are the terms big-band Jazz and combo/improv. Jazz. They are both Jazz and they are not the same.. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | I've been lucky enough to see the Tom Kubis big band live a good number of times. His lead book is a lot like Goodwin's. And I've seen a number of lead players (including Wayne) nail one crazy high chart after the other all night long. And I've read a fair number of these charts and the high notes written don't really lend themselves to 8vb. They really need a player who can play up to G at least a time or two in a chart. The guy on second needs some high-note facility too. The lower books are usually more manageable. |
If anyone's unaware or otherwise interested Tom Kubis has a website listing his enormous list of charts. For most he lists the highest note for the trumpet and for some you can see a sample part and/or hear audio samples. Here's a link to just his big band arrangements. https://www.tomkubis.com/big-band-all
Did I mention that I love the Tom Kubis big band? _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Mike Sailors Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose we're talking about playing in a big band?
A good range in general, for every trumpet player, would be from low F# to High G - regardless of what music you're going to play. _________________ www.mikesailors.com |
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kgsmith1 Regular Member
Joined: 30 Nov 2019 Posts: 73 Location: Greater Chicago
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Great range is where you can you can hit the notes you need to hit with what Eric Cartman would call "authoriteh". |
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mograph Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2020 Posts: 101
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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:35 am Post subject: |
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For amateur/community stage band, and we're talking lead only, your top should be a G (4th line above). I've only seen a G on a pro big band chart, but a fair number of D's and E's just below that. For the kids' charts, the highest I've seen is a C, and they really seem to want to avoid writing those.
As a jazz soloist, it depends on who is setting your ideal sound image for you. For example, I don't recall seeing a Chet transcription above a C. But Dizzy? Ha!
Whatever you play, when you solo, confidence and familiarity is more important than height, IMO. If you decide to take the risk and squeak out something you've never played before, you'll probably sound like a putz. But if you tastefully use a confident, familiar (not-as) high note as an accent to add energy, that's much better. I would suppose that if your confident high note isn't as high as you'd like, then maybe bias most of your solo a little lower, so your not-too-high highest note sounds high by comparison. _________________ 1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music |
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