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Phoenix864 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2019 Posts: 223 Location: Washington DC, US
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:29 pm Post subject: Conn 22b vs Olds Super for Jazz |
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Hi all,
I've been looking at two local used horns - a 1940/41 Conn 22b NYS and a 1969 Olds Super, both for $450. I'm hoping to use the horn for jazz/big band playing with some upper register stuff, so I'm looking for a bright sound and strong projection. I'd also prefer a slightly more open blow - I've found a tighter horn makes the upper register feel stuffy for me. I'm currently leaning towards the Super, but have heard some good things about using the 22b for jazz. Both horns seem to be in decent shape (and will be thoroughly inspected in-person before purchase), so currently I'm just weighing the horns based on their playing attributes.
I've been using a Schagerl James Morrison Meister - it's a solid horn, but is on the warmer side with a 37ish gold brass bell and is a bit on the tight side for me.
My two main questions - about how much of a difference might I see between the Schagerl and the Super or the 22b? And between the 22b and the Super, is one of them a better match for what I'm looking for? Any recommendations would be much appreciated. |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:28 am Post subject: |
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I don't know much about the 22B, but I have read much about the Olds Super and it seems the Super can be warm, or it can be bright, depending on the player and the mouthpiece. It's that way for me on the Olds Recording I own.
George _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1830 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:41 am Post subject: |
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I don't consider the Conn 22B to be "bright" but rather "brilliant". Its like a hammer on an anvil vs. a bright cymbal. The blow is tight but uniform from low to high.
A mouthpiece with a larger throat, bigger zingy backbore might give you what you want. But then a different mouthpiece might give you what you need with your present trumpet. (I would worry about the compression on a '40s horn unless it has had a valve job in the past 20 years.)
It seems like it would be a lot easier for you to get the sound and feel you want with a Getzen Eterna. Sort of bright - nice open high register. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | It seems like it would be a lot easier for you to get the sound and feel you want with a Getzen Eterna. Sort of bright - nice open high register. |
That wasn't the OP's question but a Getzen Eterna Classic is what first came to mind, also. Difference in price, though. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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EdMann Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:01 am Post subject: |
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I own and play both a '23 Conn 22B and a '42 Super. I use the Conn in orchestra settings and the Super in jazz settings. To my ear, that's seems what they're each geared for. IMO those are the best eras for each model.
ed |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Conn 22b vs Olds Super for Jazz |
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Phoenix864 wrote: | Hi all,
I've been looking at two local used horns - a 1940/41 Conn 22b NYS and a 1969 Olds Super, both for $450. I'm hoping to use the horn for jazz/big band playing with some upper register stuff, so I'm looking for a bright sound and strong projection. I'd also prefer a slightly more open blow - I've found a tighter horn makes the upper register feel stuffy for me. |
If you have the skills to play jazz you can play jazz on any trumpet.
The 22B was used by Bud Herseth for orchestral playing but that makes the 22B not a typical trumpet for playing the classic repertoire, it's just a fine horn that can perform well in a classical setting as well as in every other type of music; I used one for years in both jazz as in classical settings.
And so does the Olds Super, a fine horn as well, the lady besides me in the symphony orchestra uses one. I posessed one 1948 Super and a later one, mid 60's as I remember, both well build instruments.
Both the 22B as the Olds Super have a fresh, martial, brilliant sound, they both have a -to me- nice resistance in the blow, a little bit like a Bach 180-37 trumpet.
But if you realy want to make a step forward to me you should go for a recent build horn like Getzen Proteus or Vincent Bach 180/37 because a vintage horn plays like a vintage horn. Nothing wrong with it but there is a reason that I sold my Olds Supers and stick to modern build horns like Getzen Eterna... _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 am Post subject: |
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If they are local, just go and play them, we can't tell you how you will get on with them!
I own a Meister Morrison and a 47 Super - and I used to own a 30/40s 22B, but I am a different player to you, so it's borderline useless info.
IMO the Super is the more brilliant horn with the most broad range of tonal colours.
Resistance wise all horns are in a similar ballpark.
The Super is quite mouthpiece sensitive, mine plays incredibly well on several pieces, and not so on others which work in my Studio. So take a few pieces if you have a few you regularly use.
It took me a few weeks to settle into the Super and really find the sweet spot. I'm glad I took my time. I have played my Meister once since getting the Super to make sure I wasn't kidding myself and it's everything I was lacking - imo.
The 22B I had was super efficient and a great player, but I never played a 22B quite like my Super plays and that's what I am after. Again, YMMV.
Best,Mike _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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Phoenix864 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2019 Posts: 223 Location: Washington DC, US
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the info! My main focus is a horn that cuts through the ensemble better so I don't have to work as hard to be heard. Having a bit more 'zing/sparkle' in sound would also be nice. The JM is a great horn and I could certainly get by using it for big band, but it does lean towards 'warm' rather than 'cutting/bright.'
While not guaranteed, it sounds like the Super might offer some of that additional 'zing.' Mike - thanks for the feedback on the Super. It's good to hear that you found the Super to offer a number of things the JM didn't. I plan on checking the horn out shortly.
The Getzens sound great, but I'd prefer to keep my used horn shopping local. There are a couple modern 700s available locally (as well as a #90) for $450 as well - would they be work a look?
My primary concern would be picking up the horn and finding it doesn't offer much compared to the JM (though I find the Super to be a cool horn just in terms of design and history). It sounds like I'll have to answer that for myself when trying the horn. Any recommendations for evaluating the sound of a horn when demoing solo? I unfortunately don't have a trusted ear I can take with me. |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 906
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Of the two choices, I would definitely go for the Olds Super for big band/jazz playing. It has been a long time since I played an original 22B (the model was re-introduced in the late 40's-early 50's if memory serves me correctly and the re-issue is not the same as an original 1920's 22B). However, I currently own a 1927 Conn 2B, which I believe is a medium large version of the medium bore 22B. The 22B was previously described as having a "brilliant" sound and that describes my 2B as well. However, even with a large mouthpiece, I don't think the horn is particularly well-suited for big band playing. I think the Olds Super is a much better choice. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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I own an early 50's and an early 50's 22B. What I like about the early 50's is that the tone stays brilliant everywhere on the horn at all levels. I will say the lowest sound level can get quite thick and lush so for quiet playing is pretty special. The early 60's one has thicker metal and more weight to it. It responds a little slower and requires just a bit more oomph to get the sound going. However, it is better slotting and still maintains that brilliance. I would play either one in any situation.
Both are small bore horns. Mouthpiece choice changes everything depending on the situation. Curry BC for legit playing and Curry M for jazz works well. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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SilverSpunk Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2022 Posts: 91
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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While you could probably play jazz with either horns, I would still vouch for the Olds Super, it is far more versatile in tonal color depending on the mouthpiece you use.
Try to get a Fullterton Olds Super if you want one that will respond well with a modern mouthpiece, the early LA Olds Supers have a certain taper where you will need to get a mouthpiece shank/taper modified or made to match the shank/taper of the LA Supers.
Never forget that the reciever is always in the equation of buying vintage instruments.
That being said, the 22B is solidly built but is a small .438 bore I beleive and depending on the mouthpiece you use, you may feel more resistance in the lower register with the Conn.
Blue Mitchell plays a Fullteron Olds Super in this album,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBLdTxZsJ5w |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Phoenix864 wrote: | Thanks for all the info! My main focus is a horn that cuts through the ensemble better so I don't have to work as hard to be heard. Having a bit more 'zing/sparkle' in sound would also be nice. The JM is a great horn and I could certainly get by using it for big band, but it does lean towards 'warm' rather than 'cutting/bright.'
While not guaranteed, it sounds like the Super might offer some of that additional 'zing.' Mike - thanks for the feedback on the Super. It's good to hear that you found the Super to offer a number of things the JM didn't. I plan on checking the horn out shortly.
The Getzens sound great, but I'd prefer to keep my used horn shopping local. There are a couple modern 700s available locally (as well as a #90) for $450 as well - would they be work a look?
My primary concern would be picking up the horn and finding it doesn't offer much compared to the JM (though I find the Super to be a cool horn just in terms of design and history). It sounds like I'll have to answer that for myself when trying the horn. Any recommendations for evaluating the sound of a horn when demoing solo? I unfortunately don't have a trusted ear I can take with me. |
I think you will find more zing from the Super for sure - my '47 is going to be different to later designs (that horn changed design a few times) but having played a later 70s super, I get the sense that they maybe got a little brighter when they lost the tuning slide brace, and changed other components. There's a burn in the sound when you really step on the gas with the super that I have never heard in another horn.
When I think about the 22B I used to own, it was distinctly a compact blow. A great horn too. I think of those 2 you will find the Super is the better bet. Once I backed off and learned how to play the Super I now own, it really is very rewarding. Very even scale - tonally as well as intonation, and a gorgeous looking horn.
Make sure to let us know how you get on!
Cheers!
Mike _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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I’ve owned a couple 1920s Conn 22B NYS trumpets, and one 1960s Conn 22B Victor trumpet. The 22B trumpets from those two different eras are similar in some aspects, but I found the early 22B NYS to be similar to a Bach Strad 37, while the later 22B Victor was a much brighter instrument. Because of that, I used the later 22B Victor in a big band for a time before I sold it. I found that a 1960 Conn 6B Victor suited me better for big band use. Whether a 1940s 22B is more similar to the early or late 22B, though, I can’t answer. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 684 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:50 am Post subject: |
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I had a 67' Super some years ago and a couple of 40's Supers as well. The 67' Super was a different thing, equally brilliant as the older and more talked about older Supers, but with much more zing and projection. However the sound was pretty "locked", uniform, hard to color the notes, so I preferred the older ones. I wouldn't chose it for small combo jazz but big band, oh yes.
I have a '42 22B right now. It certainly has a brilliant sound, but not as much zing as the Super. I would prefer it over the Super for jazz, but not for big band.
However, the 22B has a tight blow so if that's critical, you have but one choice. |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:21 am Post subject: |
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I had a 69 super that I used in big band for a while. It sound fine. I could blend as needed. I found the horn more taxing to play than my bach. Based on mikes’s post, maybe I should have spent more time with it before shipping it out. _________________ Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)
GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345 |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Listen to Rich Willey as he plays a olds super for all his stuff. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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Phoenix864 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2019 Posts: 223 Location: Washington DC, US
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Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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I checked out the Super earlier today and ended up taking it home. Listening behind the horn, the sound seems to have a bit more zing and sizzle than the Schagerl. Looking forward to getting some playtime on it in ensembles, hopefully I'll see some projection improvements compared to the Schagerl. The blow is pretty similar to the Schagerl, maybe a smidge better slotting in the upper register. It definitely feels like a horn that benefits more from efficient playing rather than muscling.
Condition-wise, I was pretty impressed. The valves do exhibit a small amount of horizontal movement, but when pulling the slide, covering the tube, and blowing, I was practically unable to push any air out of the horn. There isn't any noticeable red rot, the lacquer is in decent shape, and there aren't any significant dents. The bell flare does have a weird circular dent which runs all the way around the flare, I'm guessing caused by mute use. The only gripes I have are stuck bottom bottom caps, some film/debris in the valve ports, and a sticky 3rd valve slide (even after cleaning and oiling). I'll give the horn a through bath when I have the chance, and possibly get it professionally cleaned down the line.
I gave the horn a quick clean, wiping down/swabbing out all the tubes/casings/pistons and switched it to my valve oil (Yamaha synthetic, previously was using Al Cass). The valves were feeling good when running on Al Cass, but have become much gummier since switching - hopefully a more through cleaning will get them sorted.
I appreciate all the information and advice, I'm looking forward to getting out and putting some playtime on the horn.
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 985 Location: Europe
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Congrats on your new horn (I'm not jealous at all... ) _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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jeirvine Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2022 Posts: 337 Location: Baltimore, MD USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Nice! Those caps will come off with penetrating oil and patience. And this is a really detailed video on 3rd slide adjustment that I found really enlightening:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBKHTKZ4lPA _________________ 1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
1996 Bach 37 |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Looks like you got a great deal! Hope the horn works out for you. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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