Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:11 pm Post subject:
abontrumpet wrote:
...
2. I think you misunderstood my post. I was illuminating why technique is so quickly talked about with string and piano, not that sound based instruction is the only appropriate solution.
Perhaps I'm not getting your meaning here (at least in the context of these few posts), but when you're saying that embouchure is too complicated to teach to a kid, and that the tuba player needs to do basically everything else except look at his embouchure, it sounds to me like you're trying not to address physical instructions, presumably excepting the use of air. Unless there's some other big area of teaching I'm failing to see, it seems to me like that leaves sound-based instruction, to the exclusion of physical instructions.
For what it's worth, I'm not suggesting that a 10 year old should just be handed Reinhardt's Encyclopedia, but just as there are age appropriate ways to make musical or auditory suggestions, there are lots of simple, tangible physical instructions that, if well chosen, can help students of any age.
abontrumpet wrote:
3. I don't think you're reading my posts carefully at all. But also, the physics of the trumpet and the way a violin are played are massively different. In both cases, physical cues must be viewed in the context of "how do those things facilitate my sound."
There's some of this where I don't agree, but that's probably not productive for this discussion. Where it appears we do agree is that the physical things do absolutely need to be internalized and handed over to sound-based memory as quickly and completely as possible for repeatable and natural musical playing. I'm 100% onboard with that, but I think many people downplay or actively avoid teaching anything embouchure related based on the assumption that knowing how it's supposed to sound will reliably overcome embouchure problems. In my experience, and that of many others, unfortunately, that's frequently not the case.
Hmmm, my explanation is too wordy/nuanced for the context of this thread but happy to continue the discussion offline. In a broad stroke: for a kid, generally yes, leaving physical instructions like "relax the upper lip" I would leave out until they are situated. I can take care of a lot of the embouchure development without physical cues. For the tuba player, I'd have to get into a room but I'm totally open for using "physical-instruction" once I ensure that's the issue (diagnostics with sound, air, pitch etc) then sensation-instruction, e.g., air patterns, then physical instruction.
Steve A wrote:
Where it appears we do agree
We do agree on basically that whole paragraph. My one quibble is that the number of teachers that are qualified to teach embouchure specific cues effectively are not as high as you think. Those that tend to jump at the chance for embouchure instruction without doing any diagnostics on the usual causes of problems (sound, air, pitch etc) tend to be bad teachers.
I had the fortune of sitting in about 30 hours of Bill Vermeulen masterclasses (rice horn teacher) over the course of 3 years. He could take any level player and have them play like a pro at the end of 30 minutes. He prioritizes the same way I do. The last thing he does is address the embouchure itself. But before he addresses the embouchure specifically, he is able to achieve meaningful change using the visualizer and assessing the quality of buzz, quality of sound, etc. He has much more creative and effective ways than saying do this and that with the muscles. That is quality teaching, one that gets the result every time and that keeps things "sound-oriented"[/quote]
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:32 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Like I said, I'm not a tuba player so I don't have a reference for low brass embouchure and their limits.
While there are differences regarding embouchures that you can find between the different members of the brass family, by and large I think they are essentially the same with the main difference just being a matter of the size of the mouthpiece. The issue you see in this tubist can also happen with trumpet players, although the larger size of the mouthpiece make it so that it's more common with low brass I think.
Quote:
Mental imagery in what sense? Can you give an example?
Earlier in the thread I quoted Pat Harbison's discussion of Bill Adam's pedagogy. In his first point Pat wrote, "The imagination is the driving force behind music making. Hearing the desired result vividly in your imagination will activate whatever physical activity it takes to make that sound."
Now with the understanding that this is only a part of Adam's pedagogy, this is one example of where brass teachers claim that mental imagery *will* activate *whatever* physical activity necessary to make the desired sound.
My point is that the way we learn, develop, maintain, and teach fine motor control is probably similar whether or not we're talking about fingering technique, embouchure technique, bowing, breathing, or whatever. Only when it comes to discussion of brass embouchure technique do you find such a huge reliance on mental imagery as the best way to teach. I have not come across any similar pedagogical strategies when discussing bowing technique, for example.
Quote:
I think that teaching beginning students is the genesis for pedagogy in general, as brass playing is relatively simple so the most useful and most foundational techniques tend to work across the gamut.
Well, when I get around to the reveal of the tubist's embouchure issue we'll learn one area where "foundational techniques" (as are typically taught) will not work universally. Secondly, the amount of information you provide to a beginning student (even an older student with intellectual capabilities to understand what you're teaching) needs to be prioritized and limited. I'm not discussing beginning student pedagogy, I'm discussing what the teacher's should know.
Quote:
Beginning bow technique goals are the same from beginner to pro etc.
I guarantee that advanced string players work with much more detail on bowing technique than beginning students are taught. And that string teachers acknowledge the importance of understanding how and why good bowing technique works the way it does.
Since this got pushed over to a new page, I'm going to leave the link one more time.
Disclaimer: my tone isn't "attacking" i enjoy debates and discussions, but it's late where I am and I just needed to stamp out this response.
Wilktone wrote:
While there are differences regarding embouchures that you can find between the different members of the brass family, by and large I think they are essentially the same
I agree, but tubas play in 5 octaves. Even great players puff cheeks only in some registers, lip placement and alignment look different vibrating as low and as high as they can play, etc. I can more readily assess a trumpet because it's what Im used to seeing day in day out.
Wilktone wrote:
Now with the understanding that this is only a part of Adam's pedagogy, this is one example of where brass teachers claim that mental imagery *will* activate *whatever* physical activity necessary to make the desired sound.
My point is that the way we learn, develop, maintain, and teach fine motor control is probably similar whether or not we're talking about fingering technique, embouchure technique, bowing, breathing, or whatever. Only when it comes to discussion of brass embouchure technique do you find such a huge reliance on mental imagery as the best way to teach. I have not come across any similar pedagogical strategies when discussing bowing technique, for example.
I think a much better example is something like clarinet embouchure technique. A flat chin is vital for good sound there and clarinetists will teach achieving it from the beginning level and work on the somatic sensation of a flat chin as well. String playing isn't the best analogy for the reason in mentioned (a good sound is readily available).
You also misinterpret, within a few sentences, Pat's quote. I have my issues with the way Adam is taught in modern day for similar reasons you are illuminating, but you have to get it right to criticize it. It is not "mental imagery *will* activate *whatever* physical activity necessary to make the desired sound" but it is strictly "hearing the desired result vividly in your imagination will activate whatever physical activity it takes to make that sound." While it has it shortcomings for the reasons you mentioned, one thing it gets very right is: you GOTTA know what a pro sound is to get good. That's what it does so well, makes the student go and LISTEN instead of practicing technique in a vacuum (which is my main issue with the discussion in the thread, it seems to be ignoring the importance of that).
Wilktone wrote:
abontrumpet wrote:
I think that teaching beginning students is the genesis for pedagogy in general, as brass playing is relatively simple so the most useful and most foundational techniques tend to work across the gamut.
Well, when I get around to the reveal of the tubist's embouchure issue we'll learn one area where "foundational techniques" (as are typically taught) will not work universally. Secondly, the amount of information you provide to a beginning student (even an older student with intellectual capabilities to understand what you're teaching) needs to be prioritized and limited. I'm not discussing beginning student pedagogy, I'm discussing what the teacher's should know.
Look, I get it, i need to read your words better, but you also have mine better -- "most foundational techniques tend to work across the gamut" I did not say universally
Wilktone wrote:
abontrumpet wrote:
Beginning bow technique goals are the same from beginner to pro etc.
I guarantee that advanced string players work with much more detail on bowing technique than beginning students are taught. And that string teachers acknowledge the importance of understanding how and why good bowing technique works the way it does.
Again, I didn't mince words, I said "beginning bow technique goals are the same from beginner to pro." The goal of a beginner violin is to have pro levels of technique and detail at some point. My statement was basically a self-evident truth.
Wilktone wrote:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2_Qm8rw7m_4
What's this tubist's embouchure issue and what does he need to do to fix it?
Dave
Just reveal it, lol. If I am not answering with accuracy I can pretty much guarantee nobody else will. Not trying to sound self-important, but whatever you are seeing is way too nuanced for your average TH'er. I'm curious because I'm still not convinced it can't be attributed to some other shortcoming.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:49 pm Post subject:
abontrumpet wrote:
...
Just reveal it, lol. If I am not answering with accuracy I can pretty much guarantee nobody else will. Not trying to sound self-important, but whatever you are seeing is way too nuanced for your average TH'er. I'm curious because I'm still not convinced it can't be attributed to some other shortcoming.
--------------------
+1
And is it a 'fundamental embouchure action' that the tubist does not know, or is not being performed correctly? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:32 pm Post subject:
1) The way we "activate" and control the workings of our car when we drive is different than the way we design, repair, maintain, etc. our car. I need a well designed, well built, and well maintained vehicle to give reliable performance. But I couldn't drive very effectively if my head is still under the hood/bonnet.
2) Having said that, the teacher MUST be aware of the physical and the mechanical and must guide the student toward increasingly efficient and effective playing in every aspect without distrupting the student's concentration and without getting the student's mind away from musical matters. This requires excellent diagnostic skills and a firm grasp of the psychology of teaching and learning. This is why there is so much bad and mediocre teaching.
3) Adam students who know how to really do this (and Jacobs/Chicago folks as well) teach EVERY aspect of playing from this perspective. Not just embouchure. In fact, you can't really separate the embouchure from the rest of the system (tongue, blowing, fingers, etc). Everything works together by definition and the thing that calls all of that into synchronized action is the imagined sound of EVERY ASPECT of the music. Keep your eye on the ball.
4) I've checked out a lot of stuff from other schools of thought, Dave's stuff, Reinhardt, Maggio, etc. I think we actually agree on a lot (probably most) things (I'm speaking of me personally, not on behalf of the majority of people who studied with Adam or Carmine). Where we diverge is how the teacher guides the student and what how we think when we play music (especially with and for other people).
5) Everyone is unique and we all click with different ways of studying, listening, practicing, and thinking.
6) There are teachers and players getting great results from a whole lot of different "methods" and "schools" of playing. This is in large part because there are very good and very poor teachers associated with every approach. _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:33 pm Post subject:
Doug Elliott wrote:
I know the workings of a car - I have overhauled engines, replaced brakes, driveshafts, exhaust, overhauled carburetors on older cars, etc.
None of that knowledge is a detriment to my ability to drive.
But at least some of the prevalent brass pedagogy would have you believe that knowledge of playing mechanics will ruin your ability to make music.
But that knowledge can't take up much band width while you are driving or you wouldn't be a very safe or efficient driver. When we practice we focus on certain things. When we play we trust those things. If they don't work well, we go back to drills and fundamentals...like working on the timing, changing the sparkplugs, etc. But when I drive my eyes are on the road. _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:50 pm Post subject:
In my last post here I ended it with an as joke meant example of Mozart learning piano and violin from his father.
To my surprise and disgust some wisenoses here turn that into a discussion about differences in teaching brass or strings or piano. What’s wrong with you?
Last edited by delano on Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:11 pm Post subject:
Wilktone wrote:
Quote:
Personally I’m afraid the teaching of instrument playing will still be done for a long time in the same way as Amadeus learned to play the piano and the violin from Leopold. Not necessarily a bad thing.
I do think that this is a bad thing, but probably you're not aware of how severely Leopold treated Amadeus and how their relationship ended up.
Dave
??? I don’t understand this. Maybe Leopold was not a nice man, is possible, but what then? I have always had the impression that Wolfgang played the piano quite well. I see no relevance at all in this even if you should be right which I doubt.
I have no reason to believe their relation was that bad till the problems around the marriage with Constanze.
Too much Solomon on your side I’m afraid.
To my surprise and disgust some wisenoses here turn that into a discussion about differences in teaching brass or strings or piano. What’s wrong with you?
Nothing. If you don’t like the way a conversation unfolds, by all means refrain from reading it. Making implications about the mental faculties of other posters just because you don’t agree with the things they write is bad form. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:19 pm Post subject:
stuartissimo wrote:
delano wrote:
To my surprise and disgust some wisenoses here turn that into a discussion about differences in teaching brass or strings or piano. What’s wrong with you?
If you don’t like the way a conversation unfolds, by all means refrain from reading it.
Yes! Thank you! This post should illuminate how people's reductive viewpoint of "end result teaching" is usually skewed heavily and reductively. This is the reality of the pedagogical approach.
In my own teaching a diverge a bit from point 2 with advanced students and colleagues.
Last edited by abontrumpet on Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total
What's this tubist's embouchure issue and what does he need to do to fix it?
Dave
I'm not sure if I'm an average TH'er, but I studied with the late Vincent Cichowicz on the doctoral level, and I've taken a lesson from Bill VerMuelen, too. Great teachers! However, I did not learn about embouchure mechanics until peering into the Reinhardt Method. While I continue to learn from and use teaching techniques from what many call the Chicago School, it was not until I was "typed" by a Reinhardt specialist that helped me overcome some basic issues in my playing that had never been addressed and that I now feel should have been addressed. I think Dave and Doug's point is that we aren't taught some basic knowledge of how to spot and address these types of issues. Doc Reinhardt taught thousands of brass students over decades and made discoveries early on in his own playing that helped him develop a system to help those students with fundamental "movement" or "function" of the embouchure. I don't know of another system that does this.
I can see clearly what the issue is in the video now, but honestly, I would not feel capable of helping this tuba player change what he is doing. At the very best, I'd have the player get with a Reinhardt specialist who has worked with low brass, particularly. In a nutshell (spoiler alert), it has to do with upstream and downstream activity. I'll leave it at that and let Dave and Doug elaborate.
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:16 am Post subject:
abontrumpet wrote:
That's what it does so well, makes the student go and LISTEN instead of practicing technique in a vacuum (which is my main issue with the discussion in the thread, it seems to be ignoring the importance of that).
Agreed. Having a high quality goal in mind is paramount.
PH wrote:
Having said that, the teacher MUST be aware of the physical and the mechanical and must guide the student toward increasingly efficient and effective playing in every aspect without distrupting the student's concentration and without getting the student's mind away from musical matters.
Pat, is it always necessary to do this in the context of musical matters? Is there a time and place for practicing with focus on the physical matter?
abontrumpet wrote:
Just reveal it, lol. If I am not answering with accuracy I can pretty much guarantee nobody else will. Not trying to sound self-important, but whatever you are seeing is way too nuanced for your average TH'er. I'm curious because I'm still not convinced it can't be attributed to some other shortcoming.
Watch the video again and note the tubist's lip position inside the mouthpiece. When he plays in the lower register his lower lip predominates and he's blowing the air stream towards the top of the cup. In his upper register the lips flip position and the upper lip predominates, with the air being blown down. Right at that transition point between upstream and downstream his lips fight for predominance and the note cracks (when asked to hold the middle C where his air stream flips he often has a double buzz and finds it hard to play in tune). He also has a range cap (not shown in this video) that he has been dealing with for years.
Efficient brass embouchure technique requires that the musician have one lip or another predominant inside the mouthpiece and the air should either be upstream or downstream. While one popular idea about air stream direction posits that the horn angle adjusts the air stream, it's actually the player's mouthpiece placement that is the determining factor. More upper lip inside the mouthpiece (placing the mouthpiece closer to the nose) will allow the musician to blow the air efficiently downstream.
When the mouthpiece is place with more lower lip inside (closer to the chin) the air stream will get directed up.
Donald Reinhardt was the first author I've found to make note of these different embouchure characteristics and he made it an important part of his pedagogy. Philip Farkas infamously wrote in one book that the air should be blown straight down the shank of the mouthpiece, but in a later book made note of upstream and downstream embouchures in horn players. Lloyd Leno conducted some research in the early 80s that filmed upstream and downstream embouchures using high speed filming. Since then, many other people have verified this embouchure characteristic.
The embouchure's air stream direction is an important part of a brass musician's playing technique. You may feel that it's unnecessary for a student to be aware of it, but the teacher should understand it and know at the very least that different physical characteristics make different brass musician's embouchures function correctly in different ways. Upstream players in particular often get their embouchures "fixed" by well intentioned teachers who don't understand that not everyone plays best the same way they play.
Getting back to the tubist, his mouthpiece placement is close enough to half and half that, for his anatomy, he isn't able to keep the air stream direction consistently blowing in the same direction. What he needed to do was move his placement higher or lower so that one lip would predominate throughout his entire range. He gave me a huge clue as to which would be correct while I was video recording him playing octave slurs for my research.
Moving his placement to a lower, upstream embouchure opens up his high register. It also eliminates the flip in air stream direction.
Conceptually, this is a pretty simple fix. Move the mouthpiece placement higher or lower and see which one does the trick. Of course it takes time for musicians to get used to this and be able to play consistently on the new embouchure. The longer a musician plays a certain way the harder it will be to change that, even if it's the correct change to make, so it's best if these things can be corrected sooner, rather than later.
I can't think of any teaching strategy that would help a student like this tubist that doesn't simply address the mouthpiece placement and get him to try something different. Working on his breathing didn't help, nor did focus on musical expression. His teacher told him to keep practicing and let the muscles develop the strength to get into the upper register, which also didn't work. Having a solid model in his mind and allowing that mental imagery to fix his physical issues didn't work.
Simply telling the tubist to move his mouthpiece placement lower and to practice that way until it feels secure is what fixed it. After that correction other teaching strategies can start to help.
Here's a trumpet player that participated in my research. He also had a high range cap. You can see when he plays in the transparent mouthpiece that his embouchure is consistently downstream, so he doesn't have the same issue as the tubist. I believe that I had him try playing on an upstream embouchure just to see what would happen, but that's not the actual cause of his range issues.
What do you think is making it hard for him to access notes above high C? What advice would you give him? Like the tubist, there is a specific mechanical issue in his playing that you can spot, if you're looking for it.
1) Conceptually, this is a pretty simple fix. Move the mouthpiece placement higher or lower and see which one does the trick. Of course it takes time for musicians to get used to this and be able to play consistently on the new embouchure. The longer a musician plays a certain way the harder it will be to change that, even if it's the correct change to make, so it's best if these things can be corrected sooner, rather than later.
I can't think of any teaching strategy that would help a student like this tubist that doesn't simply address the mouthpiece placement and get him to try something different. Working on his breathing didn't help, nor did focus on musical expression. His teacher told him to keep practicing and let the muscles develop the strength to get into the upper register, which also didn't work. Having a solid model in his mind and allowing that mental imagery to fix his physical issues didn't work.
Simply telling the tubist to move his mouthpiece placement lower and to practice that way until it feels secure is what fixed it. After that correction other teaching strategies can start to help.
___
2) What do you think is making it hard for him to access notes above high C? What advice would you give him? Like the tubist, there is a specific mechanical issue in his playing that you can spot, if you're looking for it.
Dave
1. As I said before, for Tuba it is much harder to spot for me, but I did notice he utilized different setting for the same notes depending if he had come from below or above. The strategy to fix it can be done without simply moving the mouthpiece and keeping the students mind as the "producer" rather than "analyzer" in terms of mode of thinking. There's a set of things that a brass player must be able to do and by the teacher developing a set of drills that can adjust an embouchure is useful.
For example, for trumpet playing, I have a set of exercises, articulation based, that can highlight imperfection in placement. And when the student achieves improved or fixed articulation they have also changed their placement a bit. Loud low short quarter notes and pianissimo/staccatissimo scales through the range. Once I have heard the disfunction you give them a diet of certain exercises and the placement does actually change through the month. Not once do I mention a placement shift because I am not able to possess their body somatically and evaluate whether or not it is a viable embouchure. I will also use a visualizer for my own assessment of viability of buzz.
I'll stick to my guns on this one and say that it could have been approached musically rather than manually for the Tubist.
2) For the trumpeter, the video isn't diagnostic enough for me to say. I have a set of things that I check to see and take it from there. I can hear things he's doing with his buzz/connection and air that I would address before I determined any true embouchure disfunction. He is not playing the trumpet fundamentally well enough to address embouchure yet. IMO.
I suspect I will stick to my guns again for the trumpeter as well.
On a personal note, I don't think you have shown a greater value in your approach versus the reduced version of the one that you are casting stones towards. But this is a forum, and we are all brass players, and we all think we are right hahaha! Thanks for the discussion!
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:46 am Post subject:
abontrumpet wrote:
The strategy to fix it can be done without simply moving the mouthpiece and keeping the students mind as the "producer" rather than "analyzer" in terms of mode of thinking. There's a set of things that a brass player must be able to do and by the teacher developing a set of drills that can adjust an embouchure is useful.
Thanks for posting your thoughts, but I'm still not convinced that your approach is really the best strategy. For one thing, you didn't spot the issue in the first place. If you're not looking for and noticing this embouchure characteristic already I don't know that your exercises and mindset is going to have the effect you think it will. Can you elaborate on what exercises you use, how they alter a student's mouthpiece placement to the point where the air stream direction can change, and how keeping the mind on product is going to make the necessary correction?
But if we assume that your approach will work, is it really going to be the fastest and most efficient? Regardless, if we want to be able to evaluate our teaching strategies we need to be aware of what good embouchure technique is in the first place. Now that you understand this particular embouchure characteristic better, you can put this knowledge into context with your students and consider an appropriate time to inform your students how it's working for them and what to look out for when they go on to teach.
Quote:
2) For the trumpeter, the video isn't diagnostic enough for me to say. I have a set of things that I check to see and take it from there. I can hear things he's doing with his buzz/connection and air that I would address before I determined any true embouchure disfunction. He is not playing the trumpet fundamentally well enough to address embouchure yet. IMO.
Again, you're missing the specific mechanical issue that is causing this musician's high range struggles. I will post another clue for you. The following video shows two downstream trumpet players. Both are playing correctly for their embouchure type, but they are doing something opposite of each other.
Once you spot this embouchure characteristic look for it in the first trumpet player video I posted. What is he doing (or not doing) when he goes into the upper register?
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:56 am Post subject: Driving analogy
The earlier mention of learning to drive led me to thinking about 'learning to drive in snow' - and how that might have more similarity to learning trumpet.
There's two aspects -
1) learning TO DRIVE in the snow
2) learning HOW driving in the snow should be done
My experience is that having some knowledge about the mechanics that affect HOW driving should be done is very helpful in learning to DO it.
e.g. traction, tire spin, weight distribution, steering and braking, front wheel direction, etc. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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