Joined: 27 Feb 2019 Posts: 9 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 8:21 am Post subject: Screaming high register and subtle piano low register?
Ok, I already know that this is a dumb question but I am asking "for a friend"
Is it even possible to maintain a screaming double-C AND a pianissimo Pedal C with the same chops?
Or, put it another way: to play screaming lead trumpet on Friday night with a big band, then play with a gentle compact warm sound at Orchestra rehearsal on Saturday morning?
The frustrated all-rounder wanna-be..... _________________ Too many trumpets 🤣
(Because you never know!!)
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1531 Location: Eugene, Oregon
Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 2:20 pm Post subject: screaming
Hello,
Welcome to the TH. Some folks have the ability to do both idioms. I am not a screaming lead nor a seasoned orchestra guy, but do play front row brass band, section leader of a good concert band, third book of a big band and quintet/church chamber group player.
I aspire to lead, but dance band is my limit, when it comes to lead playing. I think of dance band and big band as two different levels of playing. To be an all around player, you need to have a classical background first for technique and experience in the orchestral setting. I see too many of the young jazz comp or jazz performance majors not having the technical chops to be versatile. Just my opinion. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976
Lew Soloff comes to mind. Lew could play killer jazz one night, screaming lead the next and The Brandenburg the 3rd day.
A French Horn guy I knew roomed with Lew at Julliard and said he was a very dedicated practice fanatic.
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2158 Location: Little Elm, TX
Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 2:43 pm Post subject:
Arturo Sandoval has a 6-octave range. I saw him live a few years ago and he played from double pedal C to triple high C and made it look easy.
Doc Severinsen.
Allen Vizzutti.
Vince DiMartino.
Most of the first-call L.A. studio players.
Just a few examples of players who can do it all in all styles. Granted, Doc is more or less retired at 96, but in his prime (which I think lasted until recently) there wasn't anything he couldn't do. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 254 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:39 am Post subject:
As trumpet players we often spend too much time on equipment, however, this is an example of where equipment is relevant IMO. Theater work often requires screaming high notes and soft low register notes in the same show, often in the same number. Same can be said for pops work in an orchestra.
I often find myself taking both my medium bore lead horn with a 6A4a mpc and my Bach 37 with a 2C or a Curry TC/TF mpc to theater gigs to achieve that. Both have to be practiced, the equipment isn't a magic solution, but I'd be hard pressed to play an orchestral style fanfare and make it sound good on the lead trumpet setup. Have this exact situation with a run of Pippin right now.
I think the other issue, which I'm guilty of many times over, is that using a little too much pressure for the screaming lead big band stuff beats the chops up and playing a gentle soft orchestral passage the next morning is a bit challenging. I think the greats mentioned earlier (Doc, Vizzuti, DiMartino, Sandoval, etc) have refined their technique efficiency such that they're not beating the face up and therefore the chop response doesn't suffer after playing in the upper register.
Nothing new, we all know this, but something I keep trying to remind myself of when I feel the mouthpiece pressure building. _________________ Jonathan Karnes
Grand Rapids, MI
jonathankarnes.com
I think it's ultimately about learning to play efficiently. Clark Terry always come to mind when I think of that. He kept his chops up until his health began to fail.
He decent high chops when he needed it and never looked like he was straining.
I got the chance to play backing him up back in the 70's. Incredible player and great guy.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:55 am Post subject:
Well, regarding theater work and equipment to make all its challenges work Tim Wendt is a great resource. Played tons of shows. He goes by the user name: trpthrld . _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 Posts: 1352 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 10:43 am Post subject:
I don't know if he uses pedal notes, but Steve Patrick talks about how he approaches the fact that he has that problem (sometimes across 5 minutes of a recording session ).
Mix of equipment as well as mental and physical approaches to the instrument.
Joined: 13 Jul 2023 Posts: 2 Location: Kansas City, MO
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 12:30 pm Post subject: Screamin'!
I actually used pedal tones a lot to build my upper register. Additionally I borrowed elements from the Cat Anderson method, primarily very soft long tones. Try holding a low C or even a second-line G for 20 minutes and feel the burn! Also builds great endurance. I was a lead player in my career and most jobs were 4-hours, so that was crucial. As a side benefit of the pedals and long tones, my embrochure moved from off-center, to much more centered, even though I played with probably 70%-75% upper lip.
But as my high register locked in, my pedal tones did as well. I also found that "relaxing into it" and letting the diaphragm do the work was far less taxing on my chops. In high school and college, I was good but worked way too hard it. Yes, playing the trumpet is physical and I was a pressure player but when I started the pedals and long tones, that all went away. At the top of my game, I had Double-Cs and the occasional Double-D, although a typical gig didn't really require more than a Double-A or Bb.
So, long story short - yes it is possible, same chops, same mouthpiece even (although a larger cup will facilitate a better sound in the basement); and they are very much intertwined.
I´m getting close now......not surprisingly using double pedals among my daily routines. Yes playing by the book! Which book?? The Balanced Embouchure
With a lot of upper lip always focussing on keeping lips together.
Faintest possible cornetty front row cornet as in Abide with me and
wallpaper peeling tones as in Mr Anthony´s Boogie original score in the big band.
Yes bragging but honestly - I´m astonished by this development made possible at 80. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Ok, I already know that this is a dumb question but I am asking "for a friend"
Is it even possible to maintain a screaming double-C AND a pianissimo Pedal C with the same chops?
Or, put it another way: to play screaming lead trumpet on Friday night with a big band, then play with a gentle compact warm sound at Orchestra rehearsal on Saturday morning?
The frustrated all-rounder wanna-be.....
Maybe but for how many people is this a realistic demand?
Who says pedal tones are necessary to have an orchestral sound?
Also what level are you talking about? Local pick up stage band and community orchestra where the overall expectations are lower? Is there a local band in your area that plays charts that demand a Maynard-like range all night and a player that can do a genuinely solid job on them? I would guess someone with those chops would be in the pro arena.
There isn't a bigger fan of Doc on the planet than me and while in his prime he'd probably have done a better job on classical literature than most people reading this I doubt he could have won a seat in one of the major orchestras in a blind audition without having first spent a lot of time focusing on that specific kind of playing. Ditto Allen Vizzutti, or any of the pop/jazz/commercial heroes. My understanding is that at one time Maynard was on track specifically to be an orchestral player on full-ride scholarship at a conservatory immersed in that world but he went another direction.
If someone wins a chair in a higher-tier pro orchestra that means they've spent years cultivating a particular approach to the instrument and maintaining their orchestral sound and accuracy is going to be their priority. It's very competitive - you don't get there by dabbling in it.
Maybe I'm full of crap - can someone say whether there's such a thing as a high-level orchestral player who moonlights with high-energy stage bands - Bud Herseth one night, lead in a CHASE/Maynard cover band another and doing full justice to both? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Screamin'!
dtap70 wrote:
I actually used pedal tones a lot to build my upper register. Additionally I borrowed elements from the Cat Anderson method, primarily very soft long tones. Try holding a low C or even a second-line G for 20 minutes and feel the burn! Also builds great endurance. I was a lead player in my career and most jobs were 4-hours, so that was crucial. As a side benefit of the pedals and long tones, my embrochure moved from off-center, to much more centered, even though I played with probably 70%-75% upper lip.
But as my high register locked in, my pedal tones did as well. I also found that "relaxing into it" and letting the diaphragm do the work was far less taxing on my chops. In high school and college, I was good but worked way too hard it. Yes, playing the trumpet is physical and I was a pressure player but when I started the pedals and long tones, that all went away. At the top of my game, I had Double-Cs and the occasional Double-D, although a typical gig didn't really require more than a Double-A or Bb.
So, long story short - yes it is possible, same chops, same mouthpiece even (although a larger cup will facilitate a better sound in the basement); and they are very much intertwined.
This is a very interesting point. It reminds me of my guitar playing days where you would play your scales very slowly and then gradually speed them up to shredder speed.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 11:33 am Post subject:
Robert, "Ah feel yer pain".
Many times there are questions on the Forum that have false premises. Like, I really need to know how to achieve true, competitive technique and musicality to play in a symphony orchestra. But I could be curious just for my own knowledge. Sometimes there's a thin line between asking from need, asking for knowledge, or just wasting everyone's time.
But regarding your premise about varying skills. I won't make a list of people who fall into the category of doing both orchestral and Jazz, I'll just drop the name of Leonard Candelaria. I knew him at North Texas and remember a conversation with him over a few beers regarding his ambivalence of concentrating on jazz or classical.
Leonard was good enough a jazz player to have played in the North Texas One O'clock Lab Band and several symphony orchestras, as well. He's hardly the only one. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:38 pm Post subject:
When my chops are in shape and I'm doing good work not only is it possible to be versatile from day to day, it's much easier. It has most to do with consistency of practice, consistently performing, and being focused every day on getting better.
When I am inconsistent and struggling with the trumpet, I am bad at everything... I never personally feel like I am excelling at one aspect of playing but struggling with another. For me it's all correlated and connected.
Many times there are questions on the Forum that have false premises. Like, I really need to know how to achieve true, competitive technique and musicality to play in a symphony orchestra. But I could be curious just for my own knowledge. Sometimes there's a thin line between asking from need, asking for knowledge, or just wasting everyone's time.
But regarding your premise about varying skills. I won't make a list of people who fall into the category of doing both orchestral and Jazz, I'll just drop the name of Leonard Candelaria. I knew him at North Texas and remember a conversation with him over a few beers regarding his ambivalence of concentrating on jazz or classical.
Leonard was good enough a jazz player to have played in the North Texas One O'clock Lab Band and several symphony orchestras, as well. He's hardly the only one.
The OP's question was more specific than just participating in both orchestral and jazz, he asked about being in a setting that required screaming double Cs and shifting gears the next morning to an orchestral setting. While clearly your friend is a solid player it doesn't sound like he really meets the parameters of what the OP asked about.
Did/does he have a solid dub C in his back pocket that he can hammer at will?
Do you think he could win a seat in a blind audition with one of the majors? Are/were his orchestras in the lesser-known but decent category? Did he audition or did he get in because of social connections?
Even though I sense he's just ruminating that's why I asked the OP to clarify what strata of groups he was thinking of. The Lake Wobegone Symphony or the LSO, NY Phil, etc.?
Looking at bios of David Bilger, Christopher Martin and Esteban Batallán for example I don't find the terms "stage band", "big band", "jazz", etc. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
"Hi Leonard - you don't know me from Adam but we're discussing a topic someone brought up on Trumpetherald as to whether it's possible to be both a double C lead player and be a top-notch symphonic player - your friend thinks I should ask you - do you have a back-pocket dub C? Do you think you could you win a chair with one of the top orchestras?"
It's completely realistic that I'm going to do that.
I see he has some solid background, with an emphasis on education credentials. From your original description I thought he occupied a chair in some orchestras but seeing his bio it's not clear that was the case - "performed with" and "a member of" are different. It sounds like he was a guest soloist. Based on his bio and listening to a couple of the sparse examples I find of him playing yes, he's participated in the classical and jazz realms. There are many who fit that general profile - it seems to me he wouldn't fit the narrow profile outlined by the OP. I remain skeptical that there are many or any that do.
My original inquiry was if someone could point to such an example - my sense is your friend isn't it. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
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