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Sarcastic Musician Regular Member
Joined: 10 Sep 2008 Posts: 77
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:22 pm Post subject: Should I try to save a dog? |
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So I have a fairly new Bach C Cleveland model. It had some stuff done to it before it came to me, but I’ve since had the original Leadpipe put back on.
The problem is that I don’t get an open, ringing sound on it. For me it’s not a good horn.
Now being that this model has many of the sought after features of early elkhart Bach Cs (two piece valve block, side seam bel, metal guides) am I better off sending it to a top repair person to have them turn it into a great instrument, or should I sell it and look for an early elkhart model?
I’m not against swapping the Leadpipe for a Dr. Valve or Melk Leadpipe either.
Is it worth my time and money trying to polish this…uh…fine instrument, or should I bail out and try to get it to someone who matches it better than me?
All advice and suggestions are welcomed. |
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jeirvine Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2022 Posts: 337 Location: Baltimore, MD USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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What else had been done to it? And how is the valve alignment? _________________ 1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
1996 Bach 37 |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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What did the repair tech say? Have you had any one else play it? Does it not fit you or do you think it's just not a very good C?
Honestly, I would probably just let it go. Read up on the "sunk cost fallacy." So many of us are tempted by wishful thinking. |
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Rogerrr Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2020 Posts: 144 Location: USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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My uninformed opinion is:
Wanna project & have the $ to spend? Restore it and have fun
Wanna good horn & save money? Look elsewhere and have fun _________________ Sax player learning cornet & trumpet...and occasionally a little bit of trombone.
( so don't confuse me with an experienced player ) |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2044 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:19 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | am I better off sending it to a top repair person to have them turn it into a great instrument, or should I sell it and look for an early elkhart model? |
Unless there is something mechanically wrong with that trumpet -- poor alignment, loose brace, etc. -- it may already be a "great" instrument, just not for you. Or not for you and your choice of mouthpiece. [Have you tried different mouthpieces, particularly those with larger backbores and/or throats?]
You've already spent some money on this horn to replace it with an original leadpipe and not gotten the sound you want. Again, unless something is obviously wrong with it, you'll send it to a top technician, have them do...something(s)...and will be out hundreds more dollars without a clear likelihood that it will work any better for you than it does now.
I'd suggest you sell that trumpet. With the original leadpipe back on it will command the best price. If at all possible, go to the ITG conference, Midwest Clinic, NAMM or visit one of the big music stores with a good selection of C trumpets (Dillon Music, J Landress Brass, Milano Music, Thompson Music..) and try as many C trumpets as you can. It might cost you money to visit one of those events/stores, but think of the money wasted every time you buy a horn and it doesn't work out.
Good luck! |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:22 am Post subject: |
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Are you basing your assessment of the sound on what you hear from behind the horn in your living room or have others listened to it in a proper setting where you'd be likely to perform on it and told you the sound is lacking? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 150 Location: Europe
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:59 am Post subject: |
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The most dramatic change to the sound and feel of an instrument is still the choice of mouthpiece. If you have played your C trumpet with the same mpc that you use on your Bb, you could try a similar one with a larger bore/back bore or something altogether different.
Sometimes various mouthpieces fit into the receiver so differently, that the gap can be anything from zero to six millimetres/one fourth of an inch. That has a drastic effect on how the instrument will respond to the mpc.
As a starting point, if you don't want to spend a fortune on modular mpcs, you could try any of the "orchestral spec" Yamaha signature mouthpieces. The Gould, Hooten, Sullivan and Hagstrom should sell below 50 bucks. The first three are within shouting distance of a 1.25 or 1.5 Bach, the Hagstrom has a narrower cup (5 to 7-ish), but all three have a cup, bore and back bore combination to match orchestral C Trumpets.
Stork Mouthpieces also come in a wide variety of overall length, cup depth and shape, bore and back bore. As for myself, I had a wide variety of mpcs adapted to accept my favourite rim (Breslmair V) and most of my trumpets have an adjustable gap receiver. I can now dial in the best compromise (and everything in brass instruments is about compromise) for sound, resistance, slotting and intonation.
Finding the right mpc/gap changed my Bach 229 from stuffy to singing out. So unless there is something badly wrong with your horn, I'd start here before considering other changes or selling. Good luck whichever way it goes! |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:57 am Post subject: |
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mr oakmount wrote: | ...and most of my trumpets have an adjustable gap receiver. I can now dial in the best compromise (and everything in brass instruments is about compromise) for sound, resistance, slotting and intonation.... |
What kind of an adjustable gap receiver do you have on your horns? Have you experimented with different ones? |
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Sarcastic Musician Regular Member
Joined: 10 Sep 2008 Posts: 77
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Thank you to everyone for their input so far.
Sound I hear vs what someone out from hears: I recently bamboozled the principal trumpet of a major US orchestra to subject himself to some blind testing. This horn was not a winner for him.
Mouthpieces: I have (too) many and have tried (too) many with this horn. They all sound and feel better on another Bach C that I have. That includes a couple with Reeves sleeves so that I could dial in the gap.
I should probably buy a little borescope to check the alignment. Anyone have any recommendations? |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Sell it and find something you like. "You can't put lipstick on a pig". |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1832 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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You've tried different mouthpieces - just checking to be sure they did not all have deep cups with large throats and backbores. |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 150 Location: Europe
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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@ dstpt:
A local instrument builder, Manfred Fehrer makes his own gap-adaptable mouthpiece receivers. They can be adjusted and then held in the desired place with a rim that screws in place.
It does have an overall effect on the instrument since it adds substantial mass to the beginning of the instrument, but I like that.
Find a photo here. (You may have to copy and paste the entire link if it does not work right away.)
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlP2TsqoijARjwavkl5JW0vc-mCi?e=D7FSzj
@ Sarcastic Musician
You have thought of everything. Selling seems to be the logical move ... unless you enjoy experimenting with extensive horn modification ... nothing wrong with that |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:11 am Post subject: |
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@Mr. Oakmount, If you have a dog and decide to try and turn it into a good instrument, your chances of success are below 50%. If your instrument is already good, and you try and improve it, then I would say your chances climb to 50%. So it is really a business decision. If the OP's horn is unmodified and in good condition, then he could sell the horn for a good price and buy another. If he modifies it and it is still a dog, then the horn will be worth less, and he will have spent money to modify the horn, which he won't be able to get back. Could the horn turn out great after being modified? Yes, it could. But, is he willing to take a chance? That is the question. You never know how a horn is going to turn out. |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 150 Location: Europe
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:03 am Post subject: |
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@ irving
Of course you are absolutely right. Modding can be great fun, but it can easily turn into a case of throwing good money after bad. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:19 am Post subject: |
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In addition to visual or borescope valve alignment checks, I'd start with simple test of no-valve SOUND.
Slightly unscrew the top valve cap to raise the piston.
Slightly depress the valve button to lower the piston.
If you find sound improvement with simple tests, then go further with valve alignment. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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TJTS Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2023 Posts: 84 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:44 am Post subject: |
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It was mentioned in another thread, but check the tension of the tuning slide spit valve. You will be amazed what that can do to the feel, back pressure, and openness of a Bach trumpet all of which will impact the sound. It makes a night and day difference on my 1950 Mercedes Bb. _________________ Michael | Owner
www.thejazztrumpetstore.com
Vintage Professional Trumpet Store |
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Robert1 Regular Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2018 Posts: 23
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Good questions and answers posted so far. Please allow me to chime in. Back in about fall 2020, I purchased a top-of-the-line C trumpet made by a top major manufacturer. This was a model that many top pros play. Well, I wrestled with that trumpet for about a year. Even had one of the top techs in the country (associated with the manufacturer) examine it. After that, it worked a little better, but then I performed on it (2nd trumpet) for an important symphonic subscription weekend. Kept biffing notes. After that, I decided that I had enough with that trumpet. Then, in September 2021, I purchased a new Bach C190 (Cleveland) C trumpet. I had my choice from several, but the one I bought was quite good. Again, however, it needed a few little tweaks. First thing I did was to remove the "tone ring" (or whatever it is called) from the bottom of the third valve casing. Next thing I did was to install neoprene O-rings on the bottom valve caps. Adjusting the tension on these made a difference for me. Then, instead of the brass valve guides, I installed the plastic ones that also came with the trumpet. It was better. Then, I tried different positions/tension of the water key screw. Better again. Then I tried a bunch of my mouthpieces (I have a lot of mouthpieces). Found one that was stellar. This all was a process lasting several months, but now... now this trumpet works great, and it is the best trumpet I have ever played. The tone is great, and the pitch is amazing. I can still biff notes, but I almost have to be trying. That other trumpet I had was a great trumpet... just not for me. So, you might want to just move on from that trumpet you have and go play a large selection of trumpets at one of the professional trumpet retailers, or go to ITG and try a bunch of trumpets. The good thing is that there are many great trumpets out there and available at this time! Good luck! |
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