Valve Compression

[maynard-46]

Need some input. What do u guys look for in valve compression on a brand new trumpet? Are u looking for absolutely NO hiss or is a little hiss acceptable? I'm trying out a new horn and there is a noticeable hiss, albeit TINY, coming from each valve when I do the self compression test...i.e. remove the slide/cover the longer tubing/press the valve down and blow.

I own a few horns with my main being a Shew Gen II and a Schilke B7. BOTH of those horns have absolutely NO hiss/air leakage. The horn I'm trying I guess u would refer to it as a "boutique" horn and VERY expensive! After playing it for about 3 hours today I absolutely love everything about it (except my compression concern). The sound, intonation, response, upper register are ALL there.

I'm just thinking aloud, I guess, wondering how critical is the little bit of blow-by when considering making a large (or small) purchase on a new trumpet.

I'd appreciate it if you would please give me YOUR opinion regarding the compression issue if u were in my situation and contemplating making this purchase.

Thank you all in advance!

Butch
_________________
TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL.

[kehaulani]

IMHO, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[yourbrass]

We have the best made trumpets in history these days, including the ones you mention. Then think about how trumpets were made 60-70 years ago, you had the largest manufacturer in the world, Conn, who fit valves loosely and they worked anyway, and people played very well on them.
It's important, but other things could be more important.
-Lionel
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[Halflip]

How hard are you blowing for your compression test? All valves leak slightly at some point (I seem to recall Charlie Melk once telling me that, if a valve is so tight that it doesn't leak at any pressure, you wouldn't be able to move the piston).

On the other hand, it would always bother me if I paid a fortune for a boutique horn with leakier valves than my other mainstream pro horns. It sounds like you have the horn at home for a trial period; if you can find a local tech who has a pressure testing device with a gauge, bring your boutique horn and one of your other horns and have them tested while you wait. Ask the tech to tell you the exact pressure each horn takes before it starts to leak, and see what the tech thinks about the valves on the boutique horn (if you have a good relationship with the tech, they will do this for free).

Aside from the closeness of their fit, the relative leakiness of new valves will depend on the area of metal to metal contact between the piston and cylinder along with the viscosity of the oil involved. I've always wondered if MAW valves and valves with shorter pistons might have inherently lower 'leak thresholds' than other valves due to their designs.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"

[Goby]

All valves will hiss if the slides are pulled without depressing the piston. There has to be a small clearance in order for the piston and slide to move, so a small amount of air escapade is normal in that test. Assuming you're trying a brand new professional-level instrument, valve compression should be the last thing on your mind. The only time to be concerned about compression is if you're dealing with an instrument that is more than 70 years old and is worth less than the cost of having the valves rebuilt.


Any professional trumpet made in the last 30 years shouldn't need a valve rebuild since modern lubricants are so much better than their historical counterparts. There are exceptions of course for instruments that were either used for 5-8 hours a day or somehow missed QC with loose slides, but those are both rare instances. Ultimately, sound and playability are the most important qualities of a trumpet, so if it works for you and is within your budget, buy it.


One other note: oiling the valves and greasing the slides with a tuning slide gel will improve the compression on any horn. If you are worried about an air leak, send it to a high-end shop that has a machine that can test for it.

[mr oakmount]

In the end it comes down to two things.

- Do the valves work fast and reliably?
- Are the tone quality/intonation/response/slotting compromised?

If the instrument feels good to you and works fine, who cares how tightly fit the valves are.

Here is an easy way to assess the amount of leakage:
You wipe the valves with a paper towel and use a fine oil (e.g. Hetman 1 or 2) to try the trumpet. If possible, record yourself.

Then you clean again and use something thicker, say Hetman 3 (or even 4), Yamaha Vintage Oil or the like. Other than making the valves behaving differently, does it have a massive impact on tone quality/intonation/response? If so, there might be significant leakage.
Saying that, if the thicker oil solves your problems, well ... problem solved.

There are also those (e.g. when playing in a jazz quartet) who actually prefer the loose feel, dryer sound and bendable notes of a vintage trumpet with less than perfectly airtight valves.

Conclusion: If it works for you, don't worry about it.

[stuartissimo]

[JayKosta]

[maynard-46]

I can't thank u guys enough for ur comments. They were ALL VERY helpful!

A little more info regarding this particular horn. It's a Van Laar "Oiram IV" and on trial from Landress Brass. BTW...Josh is a VERY nice person, easy to deal with and VERY informative.

I previously purchased an "Oiram II" model from Josh. Very nice horn but the 72-style bell was just way too much for me. I saw he just received a new "IV" in stock so I called to order it for a trial. I had Garrett measure the compression and he said it registered between 90-95. The "II" was measured back when I bought it and came out at 99.6! I believe Garrett said that the industry standard is 90 and above.

As I stated in my initial post this "IV" model gives me EXACTLY what I was looking for to compliment my Shew II and it's NOT a hard switch to go back and forth. In fact, with a lead mouthpiece, the VL would definitely be a feasible option to play lead on.

I'm NOT an OCD type of person (just ask my wife!)...BUT...I think when it comes to my horns I AM somewhat OCD. At the same time I do realize that almost NOTHING is perfect.

If any of you have the same "issue" that I have with horns (OCD) I'd appreciate ur thoughts as well especially since I've learned SO MUCH from the different opinions/statements that have already been posted here. Keep ur comments coming!. I love hearing different view points.

Again...can't thank you all enough!

Butch
_________________
TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL.

[Halflip]

I'm glad all the replies have been helpful!

I don't know the timeline for the Oiram II and the Oiram IV, but I know that Van Laar had to find a new source for valves when Adams bought Bauerfeind. I seem to recall reading that either a different source manufacturer was selected, or Van Laar started making his own valves. Either way, that transition might explain the variance Garrett found between the II and the IV.

At any rate, if the industry standard is 90 and above, your Oiram IV should be fine. (Remember too that, as JayKosta pointed out, there is very little internal pressure being applied to the 'seal' formed by the valve casing, piston, and oil under actual playing conditions -- far less than when you do a pressure test.)

I am a little "OCD" when it comes to sensing any side-to-side play in my valves; that is something that 'grinds my gears'.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"