What constitutes that classic French sound?

[kehaulani]

What constitutes that old-school classic French sound of the mid-60s, give or take? Tonal concept. articulation. equipment? Inquiring minds want to know.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Billy B]

The spoken French language.
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Bill Bergren

[kehaulani]

That may be the basis for their sound and articulation (good point) but how did they translate that to the trumpet?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Steve A]

French music education generally emphasizes serious pursuit of solfege skills far earlier and more extensively than what is common in North America, which I think is underestimated as a driver of playing skills. Where many North Americans start out by being handed an instrument in band class and being told to have fun (which is great in certain ways), the French teaching tradition includes very clear and specific ideas about ideal musical balance, sound quality, and how to move through a clear and consistently taught progression of developmental stages.

Also, the Franquin method and its emphasis on first attacks are definitely important parts of that approach to playing, and not ones that are used as frequently or systematically elsewhere.

[Billy B]

[bagmangood]

Working back from players, horns, and pieces I'd associate with "french style": focused, light, agile, and clear.
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More than one trumpet
A "few" mouthpieces

[kehaulani]

Great answers. Any ideas about equipment? I would think that might differ from our American/Teutonic sound? In other word would we see a predominance (or dominance of one) of Selmer, Couesnon, etc. And what mouthpieces would they have used?

Thanks, again. My questions are rhetorical but, for some reason, I've just gotten interested in this topic. Too many Courvoisiers, I guess.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[kgsmith1]

The foremost exponent of the French style in the US at that time was Roger Voisin, principal of the Boston Symphony. Among other recordings, his March to the Scaffold from Symphonie Fantastique was a huge influence on my idea of a French style. The clarity and impact of the attacks, the space between the notes, the use of the brighter colors that are a natural part of the modern piston trumpet sound. There are probably stylistic mannerisms I consider French that might be more particularly Roger Voisin's, like the fast vibrato.

I'm not sure the details of his preferred equipment but I suspect it would be difficult to acquire these days. I have a vague sense of people describing him using smaller equipment than is common today, both mouthpiece size and smaller instruments like D trumpet, but I'm not sure. Although he studied with Georges Mager, as did Herseth, I don't think he used the Bach 25H 229 that Herseth was known for. (If I recall, Mager was involved in the design.)

In style and equipment choice, a very distinctive and effective player who would stand out in today's increasingly global monoculture of orchestral sound and style.

[ravel]

Roger’s thibouville C trumpet was a smaller bore and bell, yet “felt” to me bigger than my bach large bore C. When he went to third he played a Bach 239 tottlephone and he still “sounded like Roger”.

[huntman10]

[kehaulani]

Well, Monsieur, I **** in your general direction.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Big C]

Tangential observations:

About 25 years ago, I was studying French in France. I got an invite to join the local community band. They were really good; I hadn't played (to speak of) in years.

Pro players leading all the sections. The trumpeter took me under his wing because he thought America was cool (many French people actually think that, surprisingly). He invited me to the local "conservatoire" one day and I'm there, sitting in on his private lesson. Of musical note, he was having the student (15 year old girl, pretty good) sing everything, as well as playing it...

... he's getting bored, sitting behind the student, but facing me... looking at me and feigning yawns and rolling his eyes. Finally he says to the student, "You're in luck: This famous trumpet player, here from California, is going to finish your lesson today, at no extra charge. Listen to everything he says." Then he walks out of the room. I'm not sure what was worse at the time, my trumpet playing, or my French. But I stumble through the last 15 minutes of the lesson.

He comes back in afterwards. He thought it was very, very funny... and I guess it was.

Easy job for him over there: fifteen hours a week of private lessons, then also has to play in public, in about four different bands/orchestras. Makes a decent living. I told him, in America, he'd probably be a middle school band director. That made him feel good about his situation.

Not really addressing your question, but it's all I got. Oh, he saw my Schilke 12 mpc, shook his head and gave me a Bach 1C. I don't use it, but it's in my case and it makes me nostalgic for that time in my life. PS: In French, "embouchure" is the word for mouthpiece.
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'78 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
'59 Reynolds Argenta cornet

[Man Of Constant Sorrow]

I "sorta" gravitate to that "French sound" you (the OP) are questioning.

Quite frankly (franc-ly?) I am bored by the trendy American quest for a dark / mellow, jazz (Miles, Botti?) sound, with no vibrato (Miles Davis).

"Been there ... done that".

Partly, I believe achieving that "French sound" begins with that elusive "sound in your head" (via listening to French artists' recordings).
Equipment DOES matter. Also, mouthpiece selection.
Over the years (many) I have acquired several French-manufactured horns, a few with the original mouthpiece in the case.
At the onset, I perceived a unique quality in tone. A somewhat sweeter, lyrical quality.

Without great detail (a syllabus?) ... I believe much to do with achieving that "French sound" is in your embouchure, your approach / attitude to the music (that "sound in your head"), AND the equipment.

La joie de vivre !
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Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz

[Seymor B Fudd]

When I think of the French connection the march Salut 85 always comes to mind. We played it a lot with the university band during the late 1960s and 1970s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYH29bNtRYQ
Trumpets all over the place, as many tones per second as possible. And an invincible drive to the (exhausted) end.

Light, kind of squirrely, up tempo, pompous, but not teutonic (compare with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GgUv3a9ebQ Preussens Gloria.

On the other hand you have music such as the lead motif in "Un Homme et une Femme" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbEryeTQrp0

Oh I remember that one with my first long time girlfriend....

Not to forget the one and only Maurice André with his trumpet! Telemann´s concerto in D; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufGl19HiAC0 such a delicate and tender performance. So intense feelings might be a part of the French style?

Thanks Keheulani for the post - always an opportunity to take a bath in music!
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Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)

[trickg]

When I think of "French sound" my first thought goes to Maurice Andre, but from what I gather Maurice wasn't dedicated to any one instrument, particularly where pic was concerned. I think he did a lot of playing on a Selmer 360BL, which seems to be the one he was most associated with, but he also used a Scherzer, a Schilke, and I think maybe a Couesnon as well.

But that's what I think of when I think of French sound when it comes to trumpet - I'm not sure it could be encapsulated much better than Maurice Andre.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[Man Of Constant Sorrow]

I am revisiting this topic.

I recently acquired a lovely French Selmer Radial trumpet.

I suppose (?) I now have the "holy trinity" of French-manufactured horns (Bb Trumpets, C Trumpets, Cornets, Flugelhorns):
F. Besson (Paris), Couesnon, Selmer. Also, several French-manufactured mouthpieces.

Quite matter-of-factually, there definitely IS a unique quality of tone / timbre, facility of play characteristics.

One must "think" about the sound that one seeks, to produce that "French sound".
It's there. It's nice. Refreshing, yet soothing, in a way ....
The equipment enables ....
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Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz

[kehaulani]

It's amazing how good the sound sometimes can be. When I was in a service band in Europe, we always knew a French band was in the area by how ratty the brass sound was.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[JWG]

[Man Of Constant Sorrow]

[Oncewasaplayer]

Recently picked up a Selmer DeVille trumpet. It's a lightweight horn that's fun to play. Not much info about the horn online. Read that it followed the Kmod and was followed by the Radial models. One source says it was designed to produce the "French sound."
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Getzen 800DLX cornet
Selmer Sigma trumpet