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piddlepaddle
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Joined: 09 Sep 2022
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 Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:12 pm Post subject: BAP Musiic making olds |
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Did you guys se they post on Facebook
That bac is making olds trumpets again? Apparently they have all the original olds drill bits and stuff |
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty much indifferent about it since I already have an Olds trumpet. I'm sure they'll be fine instruments though, hopefully they'll be well received by someone.
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: BAP Musiic making olds |
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| piddlepaddle wrote: | Did you guys see they post on Facebook
That bac is making olds trumpets again? Apparently they have all the original olds drill bits and stuff |
I think the proper term is tooling, as drill bits are normally standard sizes either in metric or SAE.
I wonder if Zig Kanstul had the mandrels etc and they got them when Kanstul closed down. |
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piddlepaddle
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Joined: 09 Sep 2022
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: BAP Musiic making olds |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | | piddlepaddle wrote: | Did you guys see they post on Facebook
That bac is making olds trumpets again? Apparently they have all the original olds drill bits and stuff |
I think the proper term is tooling, as drill bits are normally standard sizes either in metric or SAE.
I wonder if Zig Kanstul had the mandrels etc and they got them when Kanstul closed down. |
The owner certainly said something about drill bits.
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12705
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: BAP Musiic making olds |
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| piddlepaddle wrote: | | LittleRusty wrote: | | piddlepaddle wrote: | Did you guys see they post on Facebook
That bac is making olds trumpets again? Apparently they have all the original olds drill bits and stuff |
I think the proper term is tooling, as drill bits are normally standard sizes either in metric or SAE.
I wonder if Zig Kanstul had the mandrels etc and they got them when Kanstul closed down. |
The owner certainly said something about drill bits. |
🤔
Hopefully someone on here will chime in on why the drill bits used to build an instrument are significant when trying to recreate that instrument. I am curious how it would be important when one can purchase drill bits and reamers in literally any size.
Things like bell and leadpipe mandrels on the other hand are all basically custom. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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OK, Zig did have some Olds tooling, emphasis on some, but BAC has been unloading that - see Miles O'Malley's YouTube channel to see where some of it went. That is where the sense to this ends though.
The FE Olds name belongs to NMEC and is actively in use as a current stencil brand. No one else can use it.
To build Olds horns, one would need more than the occasional stray mandrel Zig managed to acquire somehow. The engineering drawings would be required. Those are in a private collection that is no where near Kansas City.
Drill bits? Really? I don't use Facebook, but how out of touch with reality was Corrigan this time? I can think of several bit like tools essential to mouthpiece making, but other than tweaks to ports, trim, Venturi etc., they are far from the key tooling for a trumpet.
BAC has a long way to go with translating the excellent designs and brands they do own into volume sales. There is no capacity there for such a distraction.
There is nothing on the BAC website about this.
I wish I could see the post in question, but they don't make their Facebook public, so I will be left wondering what on earth it was supposed to mean.
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www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
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1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Last edited by OldSchoolEuph on Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Good point about difficulty in executing on the legacy designs they have rights to.
I am all for having more options when looking for instruments, especially ones made in my home country, but based on what I have read there have been some road bumps for BAC along the way. |
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yourbrass
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Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I concur w/Ron, couldn't find anything about Olds replicas on BAC's Web site.
They bankrupted in 1979, why would any collected mandrels, forms, etc. be available? You'd have to reverse engineer it, which would be molto-expensive.
Makes no sense, there are literally a million Olds instruments out there.
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JonathanM
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting. I'm not really adept at Facebook pages and/or searches, but searching 'Olds' at the BAC page shows this from May 17, 2019...
| Quote: | ...Darrel is engraving our first production B.A.C. Custom Recording model Trumpet! We use an original mandrel from the Olds factory to make the bell. Notice the detail we use to copy the original engraving, but adding our own B.A.C. style. The last photo is an original Olds Recording bell for comparison.
For more information on our B.A.C. Custom Recording model please email orders@bacmusic.com! |
At this page they emphasize "...an original mandrel from the Olds factory..."
While they don't mention the leadpipe, it's still interesting. I, for one, would love to just have a bell from an Recording, even if I couldn't get the leadpipe and rest of the horn. Of course an original leadpipe, receiver, etc., would be nice. Not sure how alike it would be. I think Olds used one-piece valves (are they Nickel?), and without the entire original parts I'm sure, as others above have mentioned, it wouldn't be the same horn. Still - I'd be happy to have just a bell if it were from an orginal Olds mandrel.
PiddlePaddle - thanks for bringing this up. 
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Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording, '52 Mendez
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delano
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| JonathanM wrote: |
At this page they emphasize "...an original mandrel from the Olds factory..."
While they don't mention the leadpipe, it's still interesting. I, for one, would love to just have a bell from an Recording, even if I couldn't get the leadpipe and rest of the horn. Of course an original leadpipe, receiver, etc., would be nice. Not sure how alike it would be. I think Olds used one-piece valves (are they Nickel?), and without the entire original parts I'm sure, as others above have mentioned, it wouldn't be the same horn. Still - I'd be happy to have just a bell if it were from an orginal Olds mandrel.
PiddlePaddle - thanks for bringing this up. |
This brings back in my memory a quote of a Dutch writer (from 1963!) after seeing Marlene Dietrich (in translation): ‘Oh, if only my wife had one of those legs’. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| JonathanM wrote: | | I'd be happy to have just a bell if it were from an orginal Olds mandrel. |
Then take a Recording to any of dozens of shops with CMMs and have a precise profile taken before machining you a mandrel.
But where will you get the brass? The precise percentage copper in that rose-to-red-brass alloy was not widely known. I don't know of anyone still living with that information, so you would have to sacrifice a chunk of an original bell stem to analysis - then find a foundry in Japan, Korea or China willing to make you a batch - bearing in mind that now you are buying a few hundred grand worth of brass...
After that, you just have to figure out how to work and anneal the bell to attain the same temper. - Good thing you would have lots of brass to experiment on.
Alloy, thickness and temper are all critical to how that shape translates to performance. The mandrel is just one small part of the game...
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Halflip
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 2017
Location: WI
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| JonathanM wrote: | | I'm not really adept at Facebook pages and/or searches, but searching 'Olds' at the BAC page shows this from May 17, 2019... |
That date makes the Facebook post a bit stale, don't you think? Especially since their current website makes no mention of a Recording model.
This may have been an overly optimistic 'pipe dream' post -- perhaps they made a prototype and found it to be a 'dog' not worth pursuing.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
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Divitt Trumpets
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Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
But where will you get the brass? The precise percentage copper in that rose-to-red-brass alloy was not widely known. I don't know of anyone still living with that information, so you would have to sacrifice a chunk of an original bell stem to analysis - then find a foundry in Japan, Korea or China willing to make you a batch - bearing in mind that now you are buying a few hundred grand worth of brass... |
Knowing exact alloy makeup is quite easy now and you don't need to sacrifice anything. An XRF gun will print out a super detailed list of metals, as well as the current ISO alloy number just by pointing it at the metal. A colleague of mine did it recently with the different components of a York tuba, because his brother has access to the XRF at their workplace.
If you want, you can get an XRF of your own for $10-20k, which isn't that big of an investment if you're really curious. Many scrap metal places also use them.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:14 am Post subject: |
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You can change "BAP" to "BAC" on your thread title by clicking on the "edit" function.
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yourbrass
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 10:19 am Post subject: |
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" I think Olds used one-piece valves (are they Nickel?), ..."
The later Olds valves were two piece, nickel plated over a nickel piston.
The spring barrel is brass.
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"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
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Dayton
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Halflip
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Posts: 2017
Location: WI
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: BAP Musiic making olds |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | | I wonder if Zig Kanstul had the mandrels etc and they got them when Kanstul closed down. |
The timing is interesting . . . the Facebook article (as previously noted) is dated May 17, 2019, which is only one day after the B.A.C. acquisition of Kanstul was finalized. Of course, they could have gotten hold of an Olds mandrel during negotiations . . . Kanstul was selling off tooling on eBay for a while before the B.A.C. deal.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Halflip
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Posts: 2017
Location: WI
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Dayton wrote: | | BAC made at least one "Recording" model, which is now for sale on Reverb. |
I notice that the comments in the "About This Listing" section say, "I had this horn made back in 2019 and played it for 1 summer before Covid struck." Sounds like it could be a one-off custom job.
I sent a message to B.A.C. on their Facebook page to ascertain the particulars behind the horn.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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piddlepaddle
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Joined: 09 Sep 2022
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | You can change "BAP" to "BAC" on your thread title by clicking on the "edit" function. |
Im having trouble finding the buttons. Can moderator change it? |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 2017
Location: WI
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| piddlepaddle wrote: | | Im having trouble finding the buttons. Can moderator change it? |
When you're signed in, you will see "Quote" and "Edit" buttons in the upper right-hand corner of the rectangle containing your first post. Click on "Edit". Your post will open in a new page in editable form. You will see that the title of the thread appears in a "Subject" area above the "Message Body" section. You can change the "Subject" text as well as the "Message Body". Fix the "Subject" text and click on the "Submit" button at the bottom.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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