Yamaha LA 2 mouthpiece receiver & main slide

[terum2]

I purchased direct from Yamaha London in November 2022 a wonderful LA2 trumpet . I loved the ready to go straight out of the box valve action and the fact that the item was sealed in a plastic bag straight from the factory.
I have 2 GR mouthpieces (one purchased from Prozone music) a GR 64 S Z and a GR 64 Z*.

A concern I have is that my mouthpiece sites 4mm further out from the mouthpipe receiver than any of my other trumpets.

My tuning slide is into within 6mm of totally in.

I found at 10mm out I could lip out high Ebs (below super C / Double high C) at plus 15 musical cents with my korg tuner still showing green.

What concerns me is if I were to ever try selling this trumpet to a player that uses a size 1 1/4 C (= to a Bach) - would that player struggle and find the instrument flat.

Now I am willing to concede that it maybe me but I have played along with Wayne Bergeron playing When you wish upon a star on the low part at least and in tune. I'm familiar with this tune having played it at my max power for 2 hours on Leigh McKinney's great trumpets. That's how much patience he has. I have played with various tuners with long passages and really find the Yamaha great at being able to tune in up or down and keep in tune - its intonation friendly to me.

I did have info on the effect a big mouthpiece has and the effect of a small mouthpiece for tuning through the range but can't find a reference to it now.

To some up then being into within 6mm on my main tuning slide concerns me and I wonder what other people are finding. I have yet to measure the "gap" but that is mot my concern right now - it's the receiver !

[Andy Cooper]

Check your mouthpiece gap - distance from the end of the mouthpiece shank to the beginning of the internal leadpipe. Check with both your GR and a Bach.

The fact that mouthpieces sits out further on this trumpet is not the problem - it's the internal gap you need to be concerned about.

There is no particular standard gap but many trumpets are set with a gap between .10 and .125 inches. If your gap is a lot larger than that then your receiver might need to be adjusted or you could have your mouthpiece shank turned down or converted to Reeves Sleeves.

[loudog]

There are a lot of variables...I'd say if it's working for you, go with it!!

That being said... my LA 2 doesn't have that much variance with how far the mouthpiece goes in... it's basically the same place as my Bach. 4mm seems pretty drastic, honestly. Makes me wonder if there's something there's a manufacturing flaw that Yamaha should correct. Have you talked to Yamaha?
_________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Louie Eckhardt, trumpeter
http://www.LouieEckhardt.com
Associate Professor of Music
Hastings College

[terum2]

Thanks for the response , I will check the gap tomorrow. I am just back from another big band where I know them to be good players and I had to play with the main slide out no more than 6mm and still lipped up a high stave 4/5th ledger line E. As you suggest I will contact Yamaha. There is a great rep there dealing with trumpets but like I asked him about the visible differences between the Gen 1 and the Gen 2 LA and he had to ask someone in Japan.
I now know myself that things like the 3rd slide stopper indicate Gen 2.

Anyway mine is Gen 2 boxed and sealed all the way from Japan to france to London. Ordered / deposit in Oct and probably got one of the 1st ones to arrive here in November. 1st class people.

I just don't understand a how a Wayne Bergeron designed trumpet with a GR mouthpiece and Wayne Bergeron plays GR can have this setup. If a standard GR mouthpiece doesn't fit or go in enough then what will.

I will contact Yamaha and post the info I get back here.

NB: Yes the trumpet is working for me

[terum2]

Adding additional comments to my post to give more detail on gap measurements.

Contacted Yamaha London (retail) and they suggested contacting Yamaha support.
Menu offers 8 options with the 8th being reception as there is no listing for brass. Just as the retail branch of Yamaha suggested - there is no one to speak to , they don't answer. The Yamaha music London suggested filling out the online forms - I tried 2 of these but when it came to `submit` my model was unknown.

Yamaha Music asked if I could get the trumpet to them I am unsure of there expertise in this matter.

A Yamaha dealer will be looking at the unlikely possibility that I have a brand new defective by assembly LA refresh. I was somehow allowed to think that the delay in acquiring my trumpet was due to the release of `upgrade' to the model but I now realise people had acquired this model in 2021.

Basic measurements to be confirmed with a dealership visit

Mouth pipe receiver opening to the beginning of the internal lead pipe= approx 27mm when I know it should be approx 30mm


EDIT 1-3-23 :

Yamaha LA 02 WITH GR = 24mm

Usual GR S Z 64 AND GR Z* 64 PENETRATION INTO RECEIVER = approx 27mm

I have an Eclipse CLS 4_0 pipe which gives 30mm - 27mm = 3mm gap
I have an Eclipse 6_0 pipe which gives 32mm - 27mm = 5mm

I use a main slide out of 9mm on the Eclipse with GR
I amusing main slide out of 6mm on the Yamaha with GR
I must borrow a bach 1/4C and find if the trumpet is flat
If the MP is out 3-4mm as I suggest then this will effect the balance
If as above it will effect the way it will play and respond surely.
If as above and unique build then its not how it was designed.

I hear many pros play with the main slide out "3/4 - 1"
I hear never mind you'll get used to it - this sounds like the UK 70's all over again
I don't often see this however, occasionally on Youtube.
I currently believe a good warmup in order for opening up the embouchure improves my sound and intonation and reduces my need for flexibility and thus having main slide in more. There was a time when I had the main slide out 24mm.

Has anyone out there ever had a pro built stock horn with the wrong spec ?

[mr oakmount]

Technically, it’s not a problem if your main tuning slide is only out a little bit … unless you often play e.g. with Viennese orchestras (443Hz) or church organs that go sharp in summer, and you need the extra room so to speak.

Actually, since a tuning slide that’s way out changes the bore of the instrument for the length in question, some players have inserts fitted so the bore stays narrow (cf. The Roger Ingram Jupiter/XO 1600i).

Also, even though they are of course connected, it’s less about how far the mouthpiece goes into the receiver, but where in the receiver it is met by the lead pipe. You could carefully insert the back of a pencil, mark the length when it settles on the leadpipe, then insert and mark the same on the mouthpiece. Lenth of inserted pencil minus length of inserted mouthpiece equals gap. You can compare that to your other instruments.

I would still suggest a visit to a good trumpet builder or repair tech. It might be as simple as a few careful turns with a reamer. I know it is sad that a top-of-the-line instrument should need work, but then my trumpet tech has always found ways to make my instruments go that little bit better, no matter by whom or when the instrument was made. Support your local repair tech!!!

[terum2]

Thanks for some assurance that you offer but if you were to buy a Rolls Royce and finds a defect and a customer service that you could not speak to how would you feel when people suggest taking a set tools to fix it.

This is a brand new Yamama with 15 hours play

[mr oakmount]

I understand. Point taken.

For all it's worth, I like the way this good man describes the "gap" phenomenon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv-Z9j551zE

[terum2]

Yes a helpful comment I agree. I note the reference to the concert pitch which is a pitch not set in stone and has had many variations over the years.
I also note reading that the trumpet section in the Benny Goodman band that Harry James was in played slightly above concert pitch and sharper than the rest of the band. Yet another reason to not be short of runway room.

[ldwoods]

thanks mr oakmont, that was a great video you linked in your message
_________________
Larry Woods
LDWoods

[terum2]

Must confess I have not been clear on my measurements for the LA 02 Yamaha itself.

24mm = distance GR MP travels into the MP receiver
27mm = distance between end of MP receiver and internal leadpipe
gap = 3mm


My other trumpets and including a Bobby Shew Yamaha
27mm
30mm
gap = 3mm

[JoeLoeffler]

[Andy Cooper]

[mr oakmount]

We should consider that the LA is built like this on purpose.

The more you extend the tuning slide, the wider the bore becomes in that area. So (as on the XO 1600i) the artists who play on the LA (presumably lead trumpeters) may have specified the wish to keep tuning slide extension to a minimum to keep the bore as constant as possible.

Since most studio/TV/commercial bands play at a precise 440Hz tuning, this would make perfect sense. Maybe the Yamaha LA was not designed with the church musician (who sometimes has to play with weirdly pitched pipe organs in cold conditions) in mind.

[terum2]

mr Oakmount's comments on the de-tuning of a trumpet via slide or slides is very interesting and something I have always wondered about.

I can say that a well established trumpet builder in the UK always has his trumpets for play testing set at around (if I recall) at about 8-10mm and its preferred to be kept in that position.

I wanted the option of high quality valves , to get away from the stainless steels valves but also the M.A.W valves that I know some top pros don't like where some of the younger pros do so with some spare cash I went with Yamaha.

I have a started a warranty claim with Yamaha and it will be interesting to see how helpful they are but . . with some of the red rot issues I am reading about on other more expensive models that I am now considering I feel assured by mr oakmount that I could always continue with the current instrument if necessary - it's prinicipals at stake here.

I will add that I have never been so impressed by the sound and feel of a trumpet like the Chicago but I felt higher up I would struggle in a big band so that is why I went with the LA 02 and others have said I should stick with it.

[terum2]

I will update my post for whomever is following this subject.

Did not attempt to put through a warranty claim with the retail side of Yamaha Music London as they were not helpful and further away.

I local dealership has told me that they are putting through a claim ASAP but have an issue with there laptop. That was Feb 28th 2023.

They only wanted the invoice so a copy was sent.

I am not aware of warranty claims discussions on Trumpet Herald and how people have gone through them .

I was told emphatically that I did not purchase the item from the dealership (well I never) but a credit note maybe issued. Surely someone wants to check my stated measurements.

I know that I would not be happy having the item repaired when I read there guarantee of satisfaction. A few more days and I will see if anything has happened.

There seems to be a supply chain issue generally for all types of consumers due to Covid and replacements could have me at the back of the cue.

The would be many others on this forum that could speak about that

[terum2]

UPDATE: I am glad to report that Yamaha Music London (and no one else) are to arrange collection of this instrument so I will update this post as to whether I am at fault or the instrument is and where it goes from there. Its just great that someone's listening.

[terum2]

UPDATE AS PROMISED

Hope I'm not getting ahead of my self but Yamaha have emailed me recently.

The are sending me a replacement which they have measured.

They have stated that will be always be slight variations.

They agree with my measurement of "27mm" which referred to MP receiver end to inner lead pipe if you will of the trumpet in question.

I have to say that I am impressed with Yamaha Music London on this but perhaps not so much with another dealership.

While this has been going on I have been playing my LB Getzen Doc Sev 1966 - (storage since purchased) now that's a trumpet with the crispest note changes on chromatics , great everything in fact but I'm no pro.

I may end the thread here or in a few days

[mr oakmount]

I am very pleased for you that things are working out according to your wished. Good luck.

[terum2]

Thank you mr oakmount.

UPS delivery brand new replacement tomorrow - can't ask for better than that.

Your recommended viewing on Youtube for the gap is a very comprehensive.