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ECLtmpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Posts: 147
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:55 pm Post subject: Add a 3rd valve water key? |
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I have a 'B' Series Schilke that I really like (B6). It gets a lot of use. My issue is the 3rd valve slide does not have a water key and with the stop screw getting condensation out of the slide is a pain. It involves either holding the horn up and blowing while depressing the valves in sequence, 3,2,1 and then turning it around and emptying it through the bell. We've all seen this move, and during a performance it really makes you stick out. Option 2 is backing out the stop screw and pulling the slide. Either way it's not a quick solution like the 'dump' slide on some horns.
A water key can be put on the slide but I'm concerned that may negatively effect the horn.
Have any one of you experience with this? I'm sure there are many opinions but actual experience would be preferred.
Install a water key or just live with it as is?
Actually another option is to have Schilke build me another slide with a water key, but that's an expensive option. ...I guess the term 'spit valve' is no longer correct |
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trumpetera Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 1210 Location: Gothenburg,Sweden
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Everything changes something. I have tried 3rd valve slides with vaterkeys on my Bach’s and quickly changed back. The response was altered.
Try to pull the 2nd slide, tilt the horn to the right and upwards and blow. _________________ Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe to make the change reversible get a replacement slide with a waterkey on it, or have one added, keeping your current as is just in case.
Of course the new slide will need fitting by a tech.
If it were me, if the replacement doesn’t come with a waterkey I would fit it without and see if it changes the horn from the stock configuration. But that is due to my curious nature. |
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JoeLoeffler Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 243
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Adding a water key to that third slide will definitely change how the horn plays. (The third slide area is very touchy about changes in mass…) The safest thing would be for you to contact Shilke and discuss with them having an alternate slide made with waterkey. Personally, I would just make peace with backing the stop screw out and dumping the slide. |
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ECLtmpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Posts: 147
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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JoeLoeffler wrote: | ...Personally, I would just make peace with backing the stop screw out and dumping the slide. |
That's a good way to put it because I haven't made peace with it. Perhaps too many years of using a water key or dump slide (Bach 37), if that's the right term. |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2163 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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I've owned various Schilke trumpets over the years.
I know we're all different, but I've never given it a second thought to backing the stop screw out a few turns and dumping the slide.
If it's a real concern for you, you might be happier with a different horn. I certainly wouldn't add a water key to your Schilke.
Good luck on whatever you decide to do. |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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For some reason I never minded blowing the moisture out the bell of my Schilke X4b, but the same move never worked as well on the CX5. I had my local repair guy install an Amado on the third slide and never looked back.
I'm planning on contacting Schilke and sending the CX5 in for some work and when that's done it will end up with a lever-style Schilke water key on the third slide. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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I owned an X4 for a year or two. I had the same problem you mention. I went to ITG with a fellow TH member the year it was in Anaheim and had Kanstul put an Amado key on the third slide.
It made no discernible difference to the horn's responsiveness, it made dealing with moisture buildup easy and it minimized a funky, nasal overtone that lots of Schilke horns seem to have to some degree or another.
In my case, it was a total win. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with getting a second dump slide with a water key made so you can keep the original. This was advised to me by Charlie Melk for my restoration on my 1967 Bach 37. I should know in June how this works out for me. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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ECLtmpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Posts: 147
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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My thoughts seem to be confirmed. I'm not going to mess with the original slide. If anything I'd probably go with a complete new slide.
I contacted Schilke and with shipping + insurance and all a new slide with a lever water key will come in around $500.- with about a 4 week turn around.
Need to think on this. In the mean time I'll see if I can retrain myself to just use the stop screw and see how that goes. For me $500.- is a lot for a gamble just to find out if it works. |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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ECLtmpt2 wrote: | My thoughts seem to be confirmed. I'm not going to mess with the original slide. If anything I'd probably go with a complete new slide.
I contacted Schilke and with shipping + insurance and all a new slide with a lever water key will come in around $500.- with about a 4 week turn around.
Need to think on this. In the mean time I'll see if I can retrain myself to just use the stop screw and see how that goes. For me $500.- is a lot for a gamble just to find out if it works. |
That's a lot. Is that for a full third slide or just a dump slides? Charlie Melk is only charging me a bit under 200.00 for one for My Bach. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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ldwoods Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1843 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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There is one other option. On the B7L I purchased a few weeks ago, it also had no 3rd valve slide waterkey. My solution, which as it turned out was not needed.
Remove the stop screw and leave it in a drawer. To ensure the slide does not fall out, use some type of flexible band. I use "scrunchies', those rubber band looking things women use in their hair. I loop two together, put one end on the 1st valve slide U hook and the other end on the 3rd valve slide ring.
Do NOT use regular rubber band as there is some acidity in regular old rubber bands. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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ldwoods wrote: | There is one other option. On the B7L I purchased a few weeks ago, it also had no 3rd valve slide waterkey. My solution, which as it turned out was not needed.
Remove the stop screw and leave it in a drawer. To ensure the slide does not fall out, use some type of flexible band. I use "scrunchies', those rubber band looking things women use in their hair. I loop two together, put one end on the 1st valve slide U hook and the other end on the 3rd valve slide ring.
Do NOT use regular rubber band as there is some acidity in regular old rubber bands. |
It is sulphur in the rubber bands from the vulcanizing process. I believe silver tarnish is basically silver sulfide. |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 150 Location: Europe
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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"I contacted Schilke and with shipping + insurance and all a new slide with a lever water key will come in around $500.- with about a 4 week turn around."
It cost me less than half that to get a full set of Bb slides (main, 1st, 2nd and 3rd) for my Bach C trumpet. That's a lot of dough ...
If a 3rd valve slide water key is important for you, I'd just have an Amando fitted by a capable service technician and live with any possible minor changes that might or might not come with it. It's not going to turn an amazing trumpet into a watering can, is it?
PS: Before anyone asks: Yes, the Bb slides work great. It sounds very Strad 25-ish. Very well in tune with itself. Just quite front heavy and harder to hold for a long time. |
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robrtx Regular Member
Joined: 31 May 2012 Posts: 12 Location: Hawaii
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:29 am Post subject: |
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Another option is to remove 2nd valve slide, turn trumpet 90 degrees with 2nd valve slide opening facing floor, and blow while holding down 2nd and 3rd valves. _________________ Bob
Bb: Schilke
Flglhn: Adams F1 |
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robrtx Regular Member
Joined: 31 May 2012 Posts: 12 Location: Hawaii
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:33 am Post subject: |
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[quote="trumpetera"Try to pull the 2nd slide, tilt the horn to the right and upwards and blow.[/quote]
This _________________ Bob
Bb: Schilke
Flglhn: Adams F1 |
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4810
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ECLtmpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Posts: 147
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:42 am Post subject: |
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chef8489 wrote: |
That's a lot. Is that for a full third slide or just a dump slides? Charlie Melk is only charging me a bit under 200.00 for one for My Bach. |
Actually it's not that bad. For a full slide with water key, that's around $350-. The shipping and insurance drives the cost up. For me, retail UPS, my last horn with $2500- insurance was close to $75.-. That's a 12 x 12 x 24 although UPS charged me extra (after the fact) because they said it was 12 x 14 x 25. They use a different ruler I guess.
So I had to estimate a total shipping of around $150.-. Actual total cost will be somewhere in the ballpark of ~$500.- +/- a bit, my estimate.
I've never tried the 2nd valve clearing, yet.
When I went to unscrew the stop screw last night it took a lot of effort to get it loose. Being small and not used often. I'm not sure I'd epoxy a wood piece on there but I think I've seen some where that sells oversized stop screws?. |
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4810
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:53 am Post subject: |
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ECLtmpt2 wrote: | When I went to unscrew the stop screw last night it took a lot of effort to get it loose. Being small and not used often. I'm not sure I'd epoxy a wood piece on there but I think I've seen some where that sells oversized stop screws?. |
I’m not sure that getting a bigger diameter stop screw will be sufficient when you need to quickly empty the slide but I’m sure the cost to purchase and ship one from Schilke would be considerably less than a second slide. |
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