Superhorns vs. Practice

a-okay · Veteran Member Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 168

I have been quietly laughing at the idea of new "superhorns" as being the means to being a great (if not just better) player.

What ever happened to studying music and practicing your "A" off.

The players I have ever worked with, play stock to modified stock horns (ie: Maloned Bach or Yamaha etc.)

Old saying: " a bad mechanic blames his tools!"

IF you are a good mechanic, sure have great tools. But $3K+++ doesn't make sense to me

What do others say?

SPITTY · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:48 am Post subject:

Yes, it's nice to look at all of these great, wonderful instruments that are available today - it's nice to hear about their great benefits - increased range, broader tone, easier to play, blah blah blah . . . and I do think it's important to play the best horn that you can afford. However it doesn't matter one bit what horn you play on if you work hard on a consistent basis over a long period of time on your skills as a player. Great players sound great on any horn.

Cheers,
Spitty

atom_anderson · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:03 am Post subject:

I don't think it's just a matter of practice vs superhorn. These are two completely separate issues.
If you want to sound better, practice.
If you can afford a beautiful superhorn, buy it and don't feel guilty about it.

There are those who practice very diligently and sound great who get excited enough to buy a superhorn that makes them sound even better.
There are those who have lots of money, but don't sound that great, who buy beautiful trumpets and are inspired to practice more to be worthy of such a great trumpet.
There are even some who feel bad about their trumpet playing and make themselves feel better by getting a great trumpet. This is the category to avoid.

-Erik

_dcstep · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:05 am Post subject:

I can't think of a single great player that doesn't use a "super horn." (BTW, a good YamMalone will set you back more than $2000). These guys and gals may play Bachs, Yamahas and Conns, but they are NOT average Bachs, Yamahas and Conns. These horns have been hand-picked by experts and handed around a small community of pros. Many have changed leadpipes, tuning-bells, non-stock bells, etc., etc. If you're not part of the fraternity, then it's harder gain access to these horns. You have to find them yourself, which can be done, but requires some effort and a little luck. I was "this close" to ordering a light-weight, gold-plated V-Raptor when I found my Selmer Paris at a Trumpetfest, erasing all desire for the V-R.

The handtweaking of boutique horns (a more descriptive term than "superhorn" IMHO) increases the odds that the average player will find an above average horn. Still, only practice will make him or her an above average player, we agree in this regard, certainly. Top factory horns have street prices ranging from $1200 to around $2100, so $3000 isn't all that much more for a horn that may have 15 to 20 hours of assembly time in it, rather than 2 to 4 hours. When you consider the low volume and marketing risk $3000 doesn't seem so bad. Lawler even beats that, which amazes me, given the quality of his horns.

I recently wittnessed a world class orchestra player find a horn he could "endorse" to replace his Bach (much-modified with tuning-bell and leadpipe changes). He went through several horns personally picked for him by the designer. Ultimately he made a visited the designer's shop at the factory to find the horn that matched his needs. The horn is a Vintage One C and, with luck, we could buy an equivalent horn. Still, you're unlikely to ever see my friend's V1-C on Ebay. All he'll need to says is, "I'm thinking of selling my..." and several of us will jump on it. The gold plate will likely be worn through and it'll have dents and dings, yet we'll be happy to pay as if it were new, retail.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

David Oulton · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:19 am Post subject:

edit: Superhorns and practice go very well together!

I have no argument with most of the points made:
- A new horn won't solve one's inherent skill deficiencies;
- Great players will sound great on any horn;
- My sound is very similar on different horns (i.e. Crappy players will sound crappy on any horn

)
-There is no magic short-cut to developing skills other than working at them (and placing the horn to the lips...)

Some of us appreciate quality (in an instrument) and have the money to pursue it. Some of us are just curious, and have the funds to satisfy our curiosity. And yes, there even be those among us who have more money than brains who just want to keep up with the "Jones".

Since getting my new "superhorn" in July 2001 and new GR mouthpiece in fall 2001, I've been far more motivated to improve my playing skills. But, no, the new horn did not make me play instantly better, nor did I expect it to. Improving, I have been lately.

FWIW, I was extremely happy with my lacquered stock Bach 37 for some 20 years... until I tested a superhorn...

_________________
David
Wild Thing Bb, GR67LX
Kanstul CCT920, GR64P (soon)

[ This Message was edited by: David Oulton on 2004-01-20 11:25 ]

_dcstep · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:37 am Post subject:

Man, David, that's a big horn/mpc combination! Which WT slide do you use?

I've got a gold plated GR66LX in the Studio blank that I can't use with my Selmer Concept TT and it's "only" a .463" bore. (It worked great for me with my Yamaha Z). Do you play lead with that setup?

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

David Oulton · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:43 am Post subject:

#1... but, I'm crazy. I play first chair in our quintet. The repertoire for these groups rarely goes over a D above the staff.

_________________
David
Wild Thing Bb, GR67LX
Kanstul CCT920, GR64P (soon)

[ This Message was edited by: David Oulton on 2004-01-20 11:49 ]

SPITTY · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:49 am Post subject:

Well - I'll add that I really want to order a Lawler Flugel - I'm close to doing it, just have to figure out the $$$ - and I'd love to have one of his trumpets as well. But for now I couldn't be happier with my Bach 43* ML and Bach 1 1/14 C MP.

Cheers,
Spitty

jhatpro · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:56 am Post subject:

Anyone who doesn't understand that they could play better on a superhorn hasn't tried one. If a horn is more responsive, more open, more in tune with itself, more flexible, etc. doesn't it stand to reason that a player is going to have more control and, as a result, have the freedom to be more musical?
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

jgadvert · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:59 am Post subject:

Points well made a-okay. Tell me/us....have you ever played a superhorn? Do you agree..that it alone will improve..just about any ones level of playing?

Yeh..some of us practice our butts of AND play super quality horns. Yeh...if you have gifted, developed playing skills..you will sound great on a student horn. But anyones job will be easier with a fine quality horn of their choice...if budget permits

_dcstep · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:20 am Post subject:

I think that a poorly chosen "superhorn" can hurt a novice player. I've got a comeback friend that wants more secure slotting than his Yamaha Z with more core to the tone. He tried a Vintage One, but found it too inflexible. He wanted a Selmer Paris Concept TT, but I feel that it'd be a very bad choice for him. He plays it for a few seconds and hears the great resonance, big warm tone and fails to realize that he's going to have problems with endurance and range, unless he changes his mouthpiece and makes some other adjustments. I'm busy trying to steer him away, or at least get him to move down to the smaller belled 80J with tighter, more squared non-reverse tuning slide. It's more secure and requires less air. (Too bad Selmer Paris doesn't make ml horns. I think there'd be a good market for them). Anyway, the same bad choice can be had buying any trumpet based on "name" rather than fit to the individual player.

I think that the Yamaha, Bachs and Conns of the world are so well put together that there's little need for an average player to move up; however, I wouldn't discourage anyone with the money and inclination to go ahead, just make sure you get a good match. The advantage to the average player is so small that it doesn't really make much sense. IF you feel a difference, then it's worth the effort. If you have to ask someone else, then you're probably spending more than you need to.

BTW, I've played almost everything in the last couple of years.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

SPITTY · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:41 am Post subject:

A bit more food for thought - Dave Douglas plays a Bach 25 right off the shelf. No customizing, no aadditional work. Just thought this pertained to the topic at hand.

Spitty

musiclifeline · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:48 am Post subject:

and last I checked, Douglas plays a Bach 5B mouthpiece along with it.

_dcstep · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:53 am Post subject:

How many did he play before picking the one?

mark936 · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:00 am Post subject:

Well put Jim Hatfield.

Older great horns with 30,000 hrs. can have issues.

I've played my "new to me" Callet Jazz for about twenty hours now (2-3 hrs. sessions) in the privacy of my hangar, no performances or rehearsals.

I now have come to the following solid conclusion-- Wow! What a horn. Everything that Jim said.

You don't want to be fighting a horn.

SPITTY · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:54 am Post subject:

Hi DC,

I believe he played a few that were in the store (I think Manny's at the time when Manny's still had a brass dept).

DD is now playing a 3B mouthpiece.

By the way DC - are you an instrument dealer as well as a player? I keep myself informed about horns and play test as many as possible but I'm astounded at your knowledge of the brass world.

Spitty

_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:59 am Post subject:

My superhorns make me want to practice more. - Don

(OK, if I don't practice more, and play more, my wife'll kill me after spending all that money on horns! Here's a tip for you -- marry a pianist. After I got her a new baby grand for her birthday a few years ago, the price of trumpets didn't look nearly so bad.

)
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

a-okay · Veteran Member Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 168

Motivation comes in many forms. If you believe you will sound great on a Bach, Yamaha, Conn, Wild Thing, Eclipse, Taylor, Monette or Bundy! You will sound better! By virtue of your mind-set you have a motivation to achieve. And in this online world of "I own this" or "I play that"...Whatever motivates you to create music and beauty in this world; I COMMEND YOU and say AMEN as well

And yes, I have had an opportunity or privilage to play many many brands and models of horns.

musiclifeline · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:18 am Post subject:

Wow... Douglas just goes bigger and bigger as time goes on... A few more years and he'll be using the other end of the horn for a mouthpiece...

He still has a solid range too...

brad333 · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:47 am Post subject:

"fighting the horn". You said it Mark.

That's what I was doing when I was in high school and switched from a 4335GS to a 6335HII(both Yammies). It was like a breath of fresh air. I couldn't believe how much easier it was to play them. I was making the sound come out of my bell that I heard in my head(not to mention intonation and response).

Now I'm about ready to switch again, or at least make addition to my current Bb. As far as I can tell I'm throwing more air thrugh the horn than it can handle(odd, I know) and my mouthpiece was a little large for all the different types of music I play. I was spreading my chops a lot. I've now switched to a GR65.6M from a Yamaha 13D4. It's a hair smaller and million times more efficient. I'm halfway there now.

I'm not sure how things are working with the air thing but I've been playing other people's larger, more free blowing horns with huge success(Callet Jazz, Xeno RGS, Schilke B3). It seems I've learned that I need more resistance close to my face(mouthpiece) and less resistance further away(large bore or step bore horn). I've also noticed just how easy is it to squeal on my flugel with hardly any support from the mouthpiece. Talk about step bore! I wouldn't have known any of that if I didn't know a fair bit about horns. I would've just been practising in the same way getting more frustrated because my equiptment doesn't match me. I'd know all my scales and double tongue a storm but I'd be fighting for C's and D's.

Bart Woomert(acting principal trumpet TSO) is a big horn collector. Rumor has it he has a deal with his wife that involves a yearly trumpet budget.

He told me that he owns about 45 horns. Once upon a time he used Monettes but switched away from them after a few years. He told me that your mouth, face, oral cavity, musculature, everything changes as you grow up and grow old. What works for you today might not work for you in a few years or even months. If a player a good as him believes in the search for the best match and switching horns when you need to then that's good enough for me.

As long as you keep practicing.