View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the warning ⚠️ but I only play in (or around) the staff! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
EdMann Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kennyg2019 wrote: | EdMann wrote: | First, the flugel's a Benge 5, not 5X. 5X is the trumpet. I played one on and off for about 30 years. The bore is enormous, about .460, and I believe Zig Kanstul designed it while there in the 70s. For the life of me, I don't know what he was thinking. The intonation, even with the Benge mpc that came with it, was a horror show. I sold it to my friend Dayna who apparently found a mpc that works for her, and she records regularly with it. Loves it.
The 1525 has an equally enormous bell but a .421 bore. Intonation on any one I've played is incredible, and warm? It's like an electric blanket. And no tuning issues, at least per me.
I'm married to my Besson, though, so all of this is academic, and at .413 bore with the Couesnon sized bell and construction, nearly perfect (nothing is!)
ed |
Someone else told me they love the Besson flugel. I think it was Gary Radtke!
May I ask your flugelhorn wife’s name? Which model and bell material?
Thanks! |
Haha! Beason, as far as I know, didn't have model numbers for their 50s vintage flugels, but it was made at Couesnon shortly after their fire at the Paris Besson plant. Nearly all yellow brass. She's a unicorn. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bill Blackwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 Posts: 1020 Location: Southern CA
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
shofarguy wrote: | ... I can tell you the warmest flugelhorn sound by far: The Benge 5 ... |
I owned one for a time. Even Zig Kanstul admitted it was an intonation nightmare. As to the sound, I called it "tubby". I love a warm sounding flugelhorn, but I hated my Benge 5.
puzzleheadedcow wrote: | I think practicing has a lot more to do with a solid sound concept versus a bell material choice... the horn is only one part of the equation. Until you figure out how to actually achieve your sound concept the horn doesn't really matter I think. ... |
I respectfully disagree. Thinking "warmth" will only take you so far. Horns have their individual sound characteristics as much as the payer has his or hers. Certain design characteristics (such as a wider wrap) notwithstanding, a copper bell will tend to produce a warmer sound compared to brass. With respect to Tony Scodwell, some designs may bear exceptions.
But the mouthpiece even more so. Try a Flip Oakes Extreme mouthpiece in your size. Your horn will never sound warmer/darker. Contact him. I believe he still has some in stock. _________________ Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine
Wild Thing Bb - Copper
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper
Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper
The future ain't what it used to be. ...
- Yogi Berra
Last edited by Bill Blackwell on Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ed: OK, then I’d better qualify my question again…and add the phrase “non-unicorn”! 🦄 lol
Bill: Thanks for the suggestion! I just emailed Flip 👍 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Adam West Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2008 Posts: 416
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is the warmest sounding one I've heard. But might be too open for many players.
Darkest Flugelhorn Ever Made |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jengstrom Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 427 Location: Rochester, NY
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have only recently begun to appreciate how mouthpiece sensitive the 1525 is. Different mouthpieces affect general tone, resonance (related to tone, but I’m trying to put a label on the presence of overtones), intonation (massively), and response. I haven’t found a mouthpiece that gives me everything I want with each of those variables, so what I use is, for me, the best compromise.
The first thing I want is the best intonation I can achieve. My horn is susceptible to compressed octaves. Some mouthpieces make the horn so bad that high C is a B and low F# is a G. Those mouthpieces are out.
The second thing I want is a dark, velvety sound. Not tubby, but dark. But I still want enough of those upper harmonics that the sound is resonant. Not trumpety, but resonant. In fairness, some (maybe a lot) of this can be affected by the player.
Lastly, if I haven’t narrowed it down to one mouthpiece by this time, I want response and ease of play.
The mouthpiece that had the best response had the worst intonation. It also wasn’t as dark or velvety as others. The darkest mouthpiece had the best intonation but was not as responsive as I wanted. It also had a tendency to sound tubby. Maybe I could have learned to play it with an amazing dark sound, but it the end I pulled a Goldielocks and picked the one that was Juuust Right. Intonation almost as good as the darkest, with better response and resonance.
I’m purposely not telling what mouthpieces I have in my arsenal; I’m trying to describe concepts. Sorry this was so long, but the point is that mouthpiece experimenting will yield more difference in the sound of the 1525 than you realize.
John _________________ Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks, guys.
I just ordered two mouthpieces...a Flip Oakes Extreme and a Bob Reeves HF. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bill Blackwell wrote: | ...Try a Flip Oakes Extreme mouthpiece in your size. You're horn will never sound warmer/darker.... |
I see you've sent a message to Flip about one of these. They definitely make the horn warmer. It is very usable for certain settings, and as you've described yourself as playing mainly with the church choir at your parish, I think, it would enhance the sound even more on your Kanstul.
Back to your original question, though, I'd still give a vote for the Van Laar OIRAM Fresu model, as I've mentioned before. I spent 2.5 hrs in their room at ITG 2018 in San Antonio, and Hub very kindly allowed me to take three of his flugels into a nearby hallway to get away from some of the typical blaring sounds toward the end of that testing. We then narrowed it to the OIRAM Sandoval and OIRAM Fresu models, but eventually, the latter won out. I had the ears of two other pro players who agreed as they stood 10-15 feet in front of the bell.
As I told you, I ended up going the custom route and now have three flugels made by three different builders. If not, then I would own an HvL Fresu. Now that I think about it, the Fresu probably has more of that dark quality than any of my custom models, but that's by only a small margin.
One last model to consider: Taylor Phat Boy. As you listen to players online, you might hear this deep quality that I understand you want. Two things about the Taylor: It plays very well in tune(!), and it is heavy to hold. But did I mention that it plays very well in tune? You might try one if you ever get the chance. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks again.
I told Garrett to notify me when they get another Fresu in.
I love the sound of both Taylor FHs...the regular and Phat Boy. I can't tell a difference on the videos. Is there a difference in person?
I would've already ordered one but Andy told me there's no return policy. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kennyg2019 wrote: | Thanks again.
I told Garrett to notify me when they get another Fresu in.
I love the sound of both Taylor FHs...the regular and Phat Boy. I can't tell a difference on the videos. Is there a difference in person?
I would've already ordered one but Andy told me there's no return policy. |
I have not tried the regular Taylor flugel model. I wonder what the weight is on both of those. I personally don't mind playing heavy horns, but I know a lot players don't want to deal with going to the gym. Hahahaha!!!
Yeah, I would imagine most of the boutique builders like Andy Taylor can't offer returns...just not financially realistic for their volume compared to the big manufacturers. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, I don’t mind heavy horns apparently.
We had a gentleman who’s last name was Kline play with our choir last week. He is apparently the 2nd chair in the Met. He tried my Kanstul and remarked: “Good sound! But it’s heavy!”
I never thought it was heavy. I tried an Adams F3 and thought it was super light! I don’t know, maybe I’ve been eating my Wheaties lately! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RussellDDixon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2014 Posts: 832 Location: Mason, OH
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I use to own a Kanstul Signature and it was the nicest flugel that I ever played. Like melted Butter. _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kennyg2019 wrote: | Yeah, I don’t mind heavy horns apparently.
We had a gentleman who’s last name was Kline play with our choir last week. He is apparently the 2nd chair in the Met. He tried my Kanstul and remarked: “Good sound! But it’s heavy!”
I never thought it was heavy. I tried an Adams F3 and thought it was super light! I don’t know, maybe I’ve been eating my Wheaties lately! |
The present Adams F3 is the "newer F3," which, I think, made its premier in 2020 or 2021. It has a bigger bell, so it would weigh a little more than most.
I played a friend's Kanstul with the copper bell a few years ago, and I could tell it was heavier than most normal 3-valve models but not close to what I call a heavy model flugel. I remember that I did like the way it played; I was just looking for a 4-valver at the time, which eventually led to wanting some custom features as well.
When you see flugels (or trumpets) with what they call "sheet bracing," then you know you're in for doing a little weight lifting. Some players don't like the extra weight, because the extra mass somehow translates to more mouthpiece pressure, which I can see...oh, and plus it gets tiresome on a 4-hour dance band gig! Horns with sheet bracing, I guess, has its origin with Dave Monette going back to the 1980s-90s, but over the past 15-20 years, we've seen less of that.
Jason Harrelson was doing modifications of existing makes (Bb & C tpts) back in the early 2000s that had sheet bracing. I picked up one of those that had been traded back into his shop. It is a modified Bach Vindabona C tpt with the extra sheet bracing and a very thick leadpipe that weighs just under 3.5 lb. It feels very balanced in the hand, though, which is what I think most players look for if they're going to play such a horn.
Andy Taylor also has had his hand in building various designs, many of which including the sheet bracing or other "add-ons" for weight. The idea of the extra weight is all linked to added acoustical benefits...some say more projection (which is what I get with that modified Bach C). The Taylor Phat Boy, I think, is either all copper or has thicker gauge all round. I "bought" a used Taylor 4-valve Phat Boy from Baltimore Brass (BB is no longer in business), and that was a "beast" to hold! It also had horrible intonation issues. The 4th space E was almost as sharp as an F-natural! Not kidding! I emailed Andy about it, and he said that he has tried to discourage people from placing orders like that, due to so many unprectabilities, but nevertheless, people still want it. And sure enough, the guy had to put it on consignment to sell it. I did return it after only a couple of days, but BB made it mandatory for insurance coverage that it cost close to $90 one way back to them (plus, I had to pay for the original shipping to me). Oh, well...live and learn. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Shawnino Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 255
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Andy Taylor may not do returns but IIRC he has a person in the States who will ship horns out for trials.
I love my Phat Boy and try to find a reason/excuse to play it every day. It's like fading into a warm bath. Andy modified it for me to play with the right hand alone, but I find myself using the trigger sparingly.
Andy will tell you that the shape of the tubing matters rather little, so the difference between the Standard and Phat Boy is a matter of style. He's made a playable horn that looks like the Sgt Pepper horn and makes squares and circles in his tubings to order. Bryan Corbett, Andy's walking billboard, recently took delivery of a horn with a square bell. Sounds fine to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yfOeCoNge4&ab_channel=BryanCorbett
Andy's horns may not be tubing sensitive, but they are extremely mouthpiece sensitive. He supplies a mouthpiece with every horn and if you use his piece you get one sound whilst something like a Wick is a different planet if not a separate solar system. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Rwwilson Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2019 Posts: 188 Location: Austin Texas
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have had a Benge 5 Flugelhorn for almost 50 years and still play it. I tend to think of it as having more of a french horn and less of a dark cornet sound. I've seen many posts about problems with these horns playing in tune but don't find that being a problem for me. It is so easy to bend the pitch that if you have the pitch in your mind it comes out of the horn. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Shawnino wrote: | Andy Taylor may not do returns but IIRC he has a person in the States who will ship horns out for trials.
I love my Phat Boy and try to find a reason/excuse to play it every day. It's like fading into a warm bath. Andy modified it for me to play with the right hand alone, but I find myself using the trigger sparingly.
Andy will tell you that the shape of the tubing matters rather little, so the difference between the Standard and Phat Boy is a matter of style. He's made a playable horn that looks like the Sgt Pepper horn and makes squares and circles in his tubings to order. Bryan Corbett, Andy's walking billboard, recently took delivery of a horn with a square bell. Sounds fine to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yfOeCoNge4&ab_channel=BryanCorbett
Andy's horns may not be tubing sensitive, but they are extremely mouthpiece sensitive. He supplies a mouthpiece with every horn and if you use his piece you get one sound whilst something like a Wick is a different planet if not a separate solar system. |
What's IIRC?
And what taper does Taylor flugels use?
Does Andy make the Standard anymore? I don't see it on his site. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1925 Location: WI
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kennyg2019 wrote: | What's IIRC? |
IIRC = "If I recall correctly".
When I run across these trendy texting/tweeting acronyms, I just google them -- the translation usually pops up pretty fast. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ok thanks, I didn't realize it was an abbreviation!lol
So...who is this American connection that will send out Taylor flugelhorns on trial? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kennyg2019 wrote: | Shawnino wrote: | Andy Taylor may not do returns but IIRC he has a person in the States who will ship horns out for trials.
I love my Phat Boy and try to find a reason/excuse to play it every day. It's like fading into a warm bath. Andy modified it for me to play with the right hand alone, but I find myself using the trigger sparingly.
Andy will tell you that the shape of the tubing matters rather little, so the difference between the Standard and Phat Boy is a matter of style. He's made a playable horn that looks like the Sgt Pepper horn and makes squares and circles in his tubings to order. Bryan Corbett, Andy's walking billboard, recently took delivery of a horn with a square bell. Sounds fine to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yfOeCoNge4&ab_channel=BryanCorbett
Andy's horns may not be tubing sensitive, but they are extremely mouthpiece sensitive. He supplies a mouthpiece with every horn and if you use his piece you get one sound whilst something like a Wick is a different planet if not a separate solar system. |
What's IIRC?
And what taper does Taylor flugels use?
Does Andy make the Standard anymore? I don't see it on his site. |
Not sure who the person in the States would be. I guess you'd have to ask Mr. Taylor.
I'm pretty sure that he'll do anything he's done in the past even though it may not appear on his website or FB page. I think he's the type that would point to his temple and say, "It's all up here." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|