Carol Brass Sticky Valves

[orly61]

Hello everyone,
I have a new Carol Brass CTR-9395L medium bore (0.453") trumpet custom finished in copper plating. I have had this horn for three weeks now and I love it but, from day one, the third valve randomly hangs briefly on the way up (upstroke). The second valve also sometimes hesitates when pressed down. This seems to happen only when the horn is played and has warmed up but not when just pressing the valves without actually playing. Has anyone else experienced this problem with other Carol Brass trumpets? My understanding is that they produce one of the best valve blocks in the industry and even provide them to some high-end trumpet manufacturers.

I have cleaned the pistons and valve casings a couple of times with mild soap/water and lint free cleaning towels to remove any metallic particles residue left from the manufacturing process. I have then oiled the valves again using La Tromba Special T2 oil, which is provided and recommended by Carol Brass. This temporarily seemed to fix the problem but after playing the horn for a while, the problem comes back. It is extremely annoying and makes practicing and/or performing difficult or impossible to execute.

Based on visual inspection, I do not see any piston/casing imperfections or slight burrs on the valve port edges that may cause the piston to hang but I am not a professional technician. However, upon removing the piston and re-inserting it from the bottom of the valve casing and pressing the piston, the vinyl valve guide did get temporarily stuck and then released on two attempts. Otherwise, the piston in and out action was smooth and free without any sensation of metal to metal friction. I wonder if there is a problem with the valve guides or the slots in where they slide.

I will appreciate any thoughts or possible solutions to the problem I have described above. Thank you so much, in advance, for your comments.
_________________
Orlando Rio
Amateur Comeback Player
B&S Challenger I
CarolBrass CTR-9395 custom copper plated
Allora Flugel Horn

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I've had a number of trumpets with carol valves and haven't had problems, but I do remember some of them having a break-in period that lasted several weeks. When you clean the valves, are you still getting residue (black on your cleaning cloth)? Some people wipe and reoil basically daily for a while. Another option is to try an even thinner valve oil, because Carol is known for tight valves.

All of that said, you never know--it's possible the casing was damaged or there's an imperfection or there's something off with the guides. I would check in with the seller about warranty/return and let them know you're having issues. It would be a hassle to send back, but that's probably what I'd do if I felt nervous about the valves.

[Lawler Bb]

[Dayton]

If you haven't already, you should notify whomever you ordered the trumpet from that there is an issue with the valves. It is likely one that will be resolved as you continue to break in the horn, but a horn with unreliable valves is practically useless, so make sure the seller knows of the issue.

To try to address the problem I would start with giving the entire horn a thorough cleaning. Use a valve casing brush to make sure the casings are clean. As you reassemble the horn, put oil on the piston barrels as you normally would, and also on the springs and the slots that the valve guides travel along.

Wipe the valves and valve casings thoroughly with a lint free cloth each time you are done practicing, and re-oil as above. Also clean out the bottom valve caps.

Those steps should help with the break in process, though if you have been playing that horn regularly for three weeks you should certainly be close....

Also, try moving the valve guides and see if the problem is associated with the valve or the valve guide. Valve guides are cheap to replace.

Good luck!

[orly61]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I appreciate your time and welcome any other helpful information you may have. Have a great day!
_________________
Orlando Rio
Amateur Comeback Player
B&S Challenger I
CarolBrass CTR-9395 custom copper plated
Allora Flugel Horn

[Phoenix864]

I've broken in two horns which use CarolBrass valve blocks. From my experience, it sounds like what you're experiencing is pretty typical for CarolBrass valves. I'd absolutely echo the cleaning recommendations, especially giving the horn a through bath (preferably with a soak) after a couple weeks of playing. It'll help loosen and remove debris that you don't get by just cleaning the piston (ie in the connecting tubes in the valve block).

Regarding break-in time, one CB valve block was great (on a Schagerl JM Meister). Wiped it down for two weeks and gave it a bath, but never found much in the way of debris. I've never got any noticeable debris off the valves since then, and they've continued working and feeling great for the past few years and 1k+ playing hours.

The second CB block was more troublesome (on a Harrelson Summit). I experienced constant lockups and sticking for a couple of weeks before taking the horn to a tech. He thoroughly cleaned the block and lapped in the 2nd valve. It's an extreme option, but if the pistons are really sticking, they may need some additional hand lapping/fitting to get them to a playable spot. From there, you do the final breaking-in by playing.

I continued getting debris off the pistons until about a year after receiving the horn. Since then, the valves have been running great. Just goes to show that sometimes theses blocks can have a longer break-in with how tight the tolerances are. If you're still experiencing sticking and finding debris after a month or two I'd drop by a tech to have it checked out, but it's very possible the block just needs more time to fully break-in.

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I also have two trumpets I bought second hand where I noticed the oil on the valves was blackish and I did regular cleanings and they improved. I think I have seven instruments with Carol valves, and they're all great, so my experience has been positive.

That said, I do think with any trumpet there's a chance something happened and it's worth checking in with the seller. Bad valves are always a deal breaker and I feel like it's unethical to sell an instrument on that has undisclosed valve issues.

[LittleRusty]

Two thoughts.

One, second valves can stick if the second valve crook is bumped and slightly deforms the casing. It can be caused as easily as setting the horn down a little too forcefully on a hard surface. This can be fixed easily by a tech with the right tools.

Two, I personally have found a similar sticking issue, as described by the OP, to be an issue with loose valves, YMMV. This reinforces taking it to a reliable tech before trying home remedies.

I also don’t believe it is a break-in issue based on the OP’s description.

[Andy Cooper]

Those are very high tolerance valves - could be a case where "less is better". Try a lighter oil such as La Tromba T3 and keep cleaning.

[TrumpetMD]

Wipe down the valves and the valve casings with a lint-free cloth and reoil. Do this daily. (I realize you're already doing something similar to this.)

You've had the horn for 3 weeks. Now's the time to clarify the return policy on this trumpet. If another week of cleaning doesn't change things, I'd return it for a refund or replacement.

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.

[delano]

New CB valves tend to be slow, it heals when they are not that new anymore.

[Bájoc Music]

[JetJaguar]

Hello Orlando,

I've got my eye on the 9395L as well. How are you liking the horn, and what are its playing characteristics? What do you use it for, and feel it's good for?

Thanks!
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com

[ebolton]

I have a pretty new Carol, and it took a long time to break the valves in. In the beginning, the valves were slow and oiling didn't seem to help much. I thoroughly cleaned the horn after the first week. I didn't see much "grime" at the time, and when I've pulled the valves to oil them since I haven't seen any. After a month or so, it got to the point where the valves are slow right after oiling them, but after a few minutes when the excess oil gets blown out they are great. They are so tight it's hard to pull off the slides without depressing the appropriate valves. I think they are just lapped to within a microinch of their lives.
_________________
-Ed

[Tony Scodwell]

When I switched from Kanstul made valves to Carol Brass after Karl Schagerl sent me a valve block for trial, I immediately switched. A bit of irony is when my phone rang a week after a friend showed Zig Kanstul my "new valves", I picked up the phone to hear Zig say, "Tony, can you send me 25 sets of those valves". I am up to 250 sets of Carol Brass valves since 2008 and have yet to find one flaw.

After I finish a trumpet, I lightly lap the slides and valves with Lava soap suds to smooth everything out. I make my own oil which is on the thin side and I've never experienced better valves.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com