What makes a student model

[Silvertone]

Hello and thanks for having me. This is my first post and I couldn’t find a thread on this (I also didn’t see a search function).

I’m a guitar player getting into trumpet. Hadn’t played a horn since trombone in 4th grade (I was pretty good and liked it but the trombone was borrowed and my parents cheaped out when they had to give the horn back).

So I’ve been working on embouchure and strength on a “student level” Yamaha 2310 cornet for a couple months. I wanted to do this before taking proper lessons one-on-one, which I’ll start after new year. I’m just shy of 3 octave range now and I want a nicer horn, a proper trumpet. I can already tell that my cornet is gonna be a pain (valves seem wonky), and I don’t know if it’s because I bought the wrong used instrument or because it’s a cheap student model designed to crap out after a while.

As I’m shopping, what confuses me is the “student” and “intermediate” monikers. Is it the hardware quality? The material that the valves are made of? The quality of felt pads? The number of pieces that make the bell? Brass vs silver? What are the key features that set a student model apart from something approaching pro level? And why are some student models listing for nearly $1000 or more whereas others can be had for $400-500? Do some companies make better student models than others?

I’m very aware of the cheap instrument market for parents who worry their kid won’t like it or won’t take to it. Is THAT a student model?

And is it always true that an intermediate horn is, as I’ve read, an overpriced student model?

My goal for myself is to buy a nice horn that I won’t have to fight with and that I can grow into. I hate cheap guitars that make students not want to play because they sound cheap, feel cheap, and often make a student want to stop playing rather than inspire them to play more. I want the same inspiration from my horn. I am not worried about not liking it, because I already know that I do; music is my thing and I’m always practicing and reading on it. I don’t know if I want to go out and drop a couple grand on my first trumpet, but I would honestly rather do that and have a well-built trumpet for many years than spend $300-500 on a horn that’s hardly worth fixing or that I’ll outgrow sooner rather than later.

In other words, I’m happy to skip the student/intermediate horn phase and spring for a quality instrument. I just don’t know what features to look for other than price itself. Or brand.

Thanks and sorry for the long first post. And happy holidays.

[Silvertone]

Oh yeah, I guess someone will ask me what my trumpet goals are.

My goal is basically to just be good at trumpet and to improve my sight reading. I’m mostly a loner and like working on my own stuff. Most horns that I listen to are jazz, hiphop and rnb. I really love Paulo Fresu. I like other players too but I’m no good with names (other than the usual Parker, Farmer, Davis, etc). What I adore most is the mellow, pastoral sounds of the flugelhorn, which is also a goal of mine. I don’t know if I’ll ever attempt to play jazz myself, I basically just want to make melodies and harmonies and it’s basically that simple to me. I’m not worried at all about which horns go with which genre or whatever. Nor am I worried about blending into an ensemble, cutting through a mix, etc.

Thanks again.

[cgaiii]

The difference between student and better trumpets can sometimes be blurry.

Some of the key things I know of, and I am sure others know more. Student horns are mass-produced. Often they are made of lower quality materials. They are not hand-worked to ensure quality, or at least very little individual attention is given to each horn's individual attributes.
That said, Yamaha, for example, makes very serviceable student horns.
Student horns tend to be of a generic, middle-of-the-road, design, with very middle of the road playing characteristics. In the easy ranges, they are a great starting point and tend to be less demanding on the player.
Some older student horns, such as Olds Ambassadors were pretty high quality materials and make, but still a middle of the road design to help early players. You problems with your horn are more likely due to abuse in the past rather than horn design.
Many will tell you to skip intermediate horns, but some can help you. I played a Yamaha YTR 4335 for quite a while. It had a very nice sound (gold brass bell), played fairly easily. It was totally sufficient when I was coasting along during my heavy working years with not a lot of time to practice. However, when I got more serious about playing again, and had the time, I quickly bumped into is limitations. But I am very glad for the time on that horn because I came out of it knowing what I wanted in a trumpet. So if you are moving slowly, there may be a place for an intermediate horn.
That said, professional horns are given more individual attention in their manufacturing process, custom horns even more. Many also have more specialized characteristics, so some are more suited to commercial work, some to orchestral playing, some to jazz, etc. Some are fairly broad spectrum. They have their different playing characteristics and are not one-size-fits all instruments. There is also a incredibly vast variety, and the only real way to tell if you are going to like one is to play it. And to know if you are going to like it, you have to have developed a certain level of awareness of your own playing.
In your case, it seems you may be moving fast, so you might consider an inexpensive professional level horn. I am thinking of something like a used Yamaha YTR 6335 or something of that nature. I use one of these as my backup trumpet, and after tweaking it (valve alignment, metal valve guides, finding a mouthpiece that opens it up a bit, etc.), I can move to it from my favorite horn (Schilke X3L with the Sandoval modifications), when I am playing outside or some other "dangerous" situation. It is a pretty versatile trumpet. I only mention it because you are using Yamaha now. It might be a bit tight after playing cornet, though I do not know the characteristics of your particular cornet.
So in sum, there is a world of difference in professional instruments and student instruments, but you need to know yourself a bit to pick a professional instrument that will work for you. Professional instruments can allow you to develop more if you get the right one, but they are also a bit more demanding of playing skills for the most part.
I hope this is of some use to you.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

[Silvertone]

That is very helpful and valuable insight, thank you @cgaii.

It’s so interesting how much different brass is from guitar. An expensive guitar is almost certainly going to demand less of a playe, rather than more, compared to a cheap starter guitar. I’ll never forget how my first decent guitar made me play and sound better than I really was. But clearly that’s not the case with trumpet.

I will be patient, continue working on my chops and wait until I start working with a teacher and trying instruments out in person and with more confidence.

[Jerry]

[cgaiii]

[jeirvine]

I was into vintage guitars in the '80s and '90s, when you could get say an early '60s Fender Jazzmaster for maybe $300. But older pro-level guitars are now crazy expensive. Not so for trumpets. If you know what to look for, you can find what could be your forever trumpet for well within your "student horn" budget. I'm a big fan of Olds horns, and you can find something like an early '50s Special or Studio for under $500. Or a Super of Recording for under a grand. Not sure where you are located, but if there's a decent brass shop with used horns like that nearby, give 'em a try.
_________________
1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
1996 Bach 37

[Crazy Finn]

The reality is that the thing that makes student instrument "student" is cost.

They're less expensive instruments.

They're designed for beginner students to play on, to be sold at a price point that's palatable to parents of 4-6th graders (for the most part), possibly as part of a rent-to-own program via a retailer.

There's a lot of marketing jingo and nice ideas about what a "student" instrument is, but at it's core, it's a less expensive instrument at a lower price point.

How each maker gets to that price point depends on the quality of the maker and possibly the retailer selling them.

Yamaha gets there by having the manufacturing done in other less expensive areas of Asia, but maintaining a relatively high level of quality control. And also simple volume of units moved.

Getzen gets there by not quite matching others on cost but maintaining a high QC.

In general, there's less time (and thus money) put into the making of a student trumpet.

Back in the day - like the 60's and earlier, the distinction of "student" or basic model was less clear. A lot of makers were reputed to make all of their instrument to the same level of quality. [/list]
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[Jimbosan]

Long post, but I hope it can help you.

I was looking for a used trumpet a few years ago and was surprised what was available for very reasonable prices. If you have the time, you may want to try that route. You should do some research on-line so you can ID the higher level models and weed out the lessor manufactures (ie: Jean Baptiste). Start with the Conn Loyalist site. It’s as complete as it gets.

Do you have a Sam Ash store where you live? I have two Sam Ash stores nearby. There are also a couple of independent stores nearby that have a large selection of used trumpets. I was able to try used Paris Selmers, Getzens, Kanstals, French Bessons, Holtons, Bachs, B&S Challengers, Olds, Martins, Benges, Schilkes, Reynolds, Yamahas and others, and compare them with new professional trumpets, side by side. That focused my list of possible candidates. I didn't like Blessing ML-1s or a Kanstul French Besson Internationals and I tried a few. I did like a Getzen 700 Eterna. Kanstul French Besson Classic and Marvin Stamn trumpets are fantastic and they pop up once and a while. They are often misidentified, and that can drive down the price. Sam Ash had a used Kanstul French Besson Classic listed on their web page just a few days ago. They are very similar to Bach Strads and could be had at a fraction of the price.

I had good luck using Craigs List, ebay, and local estate sales, but I did my homework first. When you find a trumpet that looks promising, you can go back to the web site (or this forum) to find out more about it. But you may have to act fast. If it’s a good horn and underpriced, it won’t last for long. I bought some of my horns on the spot because I knew they were exceptional deals.

One last thing. The trumpet has to be in reasonably good condition. It’s got to have good valves and slides. A few small pings and bad looking lacquer is ok. But do not get a fixer-upper. Check out my list of horns. I got the best deals on horns that had really ugly looking lacquer. That drove the price to rock bottom. Paid between $100 to $300 for some, but they all were straight and had great valves and slides.Don’t worry about the condition of the pads or corks. I had to adjust the valve alignment on all of them. It’s easy to DYI. You can check out how on other posts.

My first purchase was posted on Ebay just as a Besson trumpet. I could tell it was a Kanstul French Besson Classic trumpet from the photos. Because it was misidentified, I was the only bidder at $499. It was in like new condition, with a double horn case. My Olds Custom Crafted was posted on Craigs list for $125, as an “Olds Trumpet without a name on the bell”. I contacted the seller and she said it only had the serial number on the bell, 37117. I went to the Olds site and found out what 37117 stood for.

Good hunting.
_________________
Kanstul FBClassic bflat&C
'42 Buescher205
'45 Committee
'47 Holton48
'47 Conn22b
'48 Benge
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'78 Getzen Eterna
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds,DEG Bugles

[Trumpjerele]

I am in a similar situation to yours. I am a trumpet player looking for a decent flamenco guitar.

In your case, I would look for a used professional trumpet.

Something common that usually appears on the second hand market. Yamaha, Getzen, Bach, etc. When you have some options come back and ask here.

It won't lose value and when you want to sell it to buy another pedal for your guitar, you can recoup the investment.

Pd: I think I will buy a Prudencio Sáez FL 1 guitar.
_________________
Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies

Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4

Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge

[Hummelhaydn]

Silvertone, welcome to the forum:
These are some distinctions I am aware of:
Student horns generally have 2 piece bell and higher end/professional trumpets have one piece hand hammered bells.
The bell of a student trumpet can be thicker to prevent dents.
Student horns will generally have an adjustable 3rd valve slide for growing hands.
Professional trumpets will more often have more mobile 1st and 3rd valve slides as older players are better able to use these mechanisms. Beginners often don’t use the triggers or throws on the 1st and third slide.
_________________
Lynn
YTR9335CH genIII Xeno
YTR9445CH C genIII Xeno
Bach Strad ML 43 1975
Bach Strad ML 72 1980s’
Bach Strad CL 25A 229 98xxx
Bach Strad EL 236XXX
Getzen Eterna B/A Picc 1970s
Packer JP271SW Bb cornet
Carol mini-pocket trumpet

[Halflip]

[andybharms]

Student trumpets are almost entirely made with stamped brass. Starts out as flat piece of brass-ish material and gets stamped into the shape of a trumpet part. Tubing is drawn en mass, more hastily and crudely than on professional trumpets. Valves are just manufactured pistons of nickel probably sharing specifications with some other industrial use, and with low tolerances, not fitted to the casings particularly well. All done so they can make a lot of them quickly and inexpensively. Professional trumpets are mostly all made the “old fashioned way,” drawing tube by hand, hammering bells on a mandrel, pistons are often overplated then lapped down by hand for the specific instrument they end up in. Pro trumpets are a much costlier, time consuming, and skilled proposition. A good analogy might be Mad Max car, made of thrown together parts, vs a painstakingly engineered BMW. You don’t need/want the BMW when you’re learning the clutch…
_________________
Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com

[shofarguy]

I have had experience with three student horn types over the years. The first was my own. I think it was a 1969 Holton T602 Collegiate, but I may not be totally accurate about that. It cost my parents $150.00 with a rent-to-own finance arrangement. The store even had a little concert band for their customers directed by their resident clarinet pro.

The horn had a lacquer finish with a hard case covered in army green vinyl and lined with red velvet. Later, I would notice that the mouth pipe was more flared than tapered, which made it very easy to get a sound from, but caused intonation problems when I used a Harmon mute. It survived two years of elementary school, three years of Jr. High concert band and two years of High School marching band, before being relegated to marching practice when I received my Benge 5X (in silver!). There were many dents incurred along the way and the lacquer finish was worn away along the bell where fastidious polishing with an abrasive cloth finally wore through. I sold it about 12 years ago to our postman for $50.

In the 2000s, I played in my church orchestra next to a retired man who had a student model Yamaha trumpet. His body showed many signs of hard physical labor and he didn't really put out much sound when he played it. We switched horns one day, just for fun. All of a sudden a startling amount of volume leaped from him, as he played the first notes on my Benge! For my part, I found it awfully hard to get an adequate level of sound from his Yamaha. Years later, I had the same sort of experience with a young player's student trumpet, which was a cheap clone of my friend's Yamaha. I wondered at the time if the mandrel for these horns was chosen for student horns on purpose to keep, ummm, "developing players" from overpowering a young ensemble with bad tone, or if it was a kind of acoustic failure that found its life's meaning providing bells that don't require such high levels of performance.

Then, I played a Kanstul 700 Custom Class trumpet. A part of the history of the Kanstul brand is that, when he began his own company, Zig used a contract to provide student instruments to teach new laborers the skills they needed to develop. The 700 was such a horn. It had simple, stout appointments, like the mouthpiece receiver, water keys, etc., well suited to young players. It had quality build levels, just like its "professional" brothers in the Kanstul lineup. A student of mine received a used one from his parents while on Christmas vacation with extended family, one year. His uncle, I was told, was a professional trumpet player and exclaimed that the 700 outplayed his professional-level Yamaha.

In short, a student-level trumpet can be many things, depending on the make and model. However, it seems to me that a proper beginner's horn should be easy to play in tune and with good tone (Holton) within the parameters of a beginning player. It should be built to withstand rough handling (Kanstul), because of the low levels of care young people normally provide. From a manufacturing standpoint, such a horn might be acceptable with lesser acoustics (Yamaha), but it might also produce high levels of frustration in players with greater than average potential.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[jeirvine]

Here are two older student horns I picked up recently: A 60's Besson 2-20, and a '50s Olds Ambassador. Both are excellent players, and could be a forever horn for an erstwhile guitarist.

Both have excellent valve action and compression. I have under $150 in each, including some minor dent repair from the local shop. But if you find one like this for $300 it would be money very well spent.


_________________
1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
1996 Bach 37

[Jimbosan]

It's difficult to classify the quality of a trumpet based on weight, thickness of the metal, if it has an adjustable 3rd valve slide ring, or how the bell is made. There are professional level trumpets that are an exception to that (Conn, Getzen, Martin). And many of the older pro horns were built like tanks (ie: Conn 22b). That's why I recommend researching horns, used and new, on line. You will be in a better position to get a horn that suits you, for a reasonable price. The trumpet has to have good valves. The valves on the lower level Kanstul, Yamaha, and Getzen trumpets are very good when they are new. My daughter had a Holten 602R and the valves were ok on it. (The 602R version may have been made by Yamaha) I never tried a Jupiter, but I hear they are OK too. You just have to judge the condition of valves on used trumpets case by case. Some could have fantastic valves, others could leak like a sieve.
_________________
Kanstul FBClassic bflat&C
'42 Buescher205
'45 Committee
'47 Holton48
'47 Conn22b
'48 Benge
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'78 Getzen Eterna
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds,DEG Bugles

[Getzen]

A decade or so ago I could have given you an answer to this question along the lines of student horns are designed and built to stand up to the rigors and mishandling of younger players while easily producing a clear, all be it less complex, and in tune tone. Costs were kept down by limiting options, features, and materials used while keeping the overall design of components less complicated. Some manufactures did cut costs by building them with wider tolerances or by skipping steps like hand lapping pistons or hand fitting slides, but not all.

That was then. Unfortunately, in many cases today, student horns are treated as commodities with low production cost being the primary concern. Lower quality materials, comically simplistic components, and almost nonexistent tolerances. Not to mention production taking place in regions with no such things as minimum wages, employee benefits, or environmental controls.

Sadly, this is why we are all but out of that segment of the market. Twenty or thirty years ago we produced 10,000-15,000 student trumpets, cornets, and trombones a year. We had two models of each. Now we only offer the 490 trumpet and 351 trombone and I’d be surprised if we did 10% of that production of those this year. We’ve produced more Edwards X-13 trumpets the last few years than student trumpets.

Back in 2015 we attended the Music China trade show while visiting our Chinese distributor. While walking the floor I was approached by a rep for a factory there. I was offered completed trumpets in a wood case, with a mouthpiece, delivered to Elkhorn, and with the Getzen name (or any name I wanted) on them for $75 a piece. Minimum order of just 12 pieces. I can’t source a wood case for that cheap, let alone build the trumpet. In the years since, I have seen remarkably similar trumpets for sale here in the States under a variety of names for 5-10 times cost. It really is a shame.

So what is a “student” or “step up” or “intermediate” or even “professional” trumpet today? I guess I don’t know anymore. I could tell you what a Getzen version is, but that doesn’t see to fit any longer.

Reading back, this comes across much darker than I intended. There are still good student trumpets out there. They are just harder to identify. It’s counter productive for our business, but I usually recommend parents or late starters invest in a quality used trumpet than a new student horn these days.
_________________
Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company

Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/

Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany

If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com.

[Jimbosan]

I just read Brett Getzen's post about the sad state of affairs for "Student" trumpets.

Yamaha has cornered the market in my area for rentals. They are nice, but you also pay $30 a month for rent + insurance. If you bought a horn for your kid, new or used, you had to take to the music director for approval. There was a good reason for that. Parents are buying crap horns.

I offered advice to a couple of families that were looking for student trumpets. I found a used Getzen 700 Eterna that was in very good playing condition, at a very reasonable price. It only cost a little more than a no-name new horn. Their kids didn't want it because it wasn't as shiny. It was silver plated. I offered to polish it. I use Tarni-Shield. I even offered to put in new pads and check the valve alignment. That horn could have lasted them at least through high school, even college if they are going to play in the marching band. It's hard to compete with the junk selling in the "student" market. So sad.

PS: I was going to let my daughter play my 1947 Conn 22b in her 6th grade band. It passed the music directors inspection, but my daughter refused. Didn't like the bottom sprung valves or the raw brass finish. I found her a shiny used Holton 602R.
_________________
Kanstul FBClassic bflat&C
'42 Buescher205
'45 Committee
'47 Holton48
'47 Conn22b
'48 Benge
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'78 Getzen Eterna
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds,DEG Bugles

[Andy Del]

[Silvertone]

Wow, thanks everyone!

Whoever called me “erstwhile”, am I that transparent?

Mr. Getzen, it was an honor to read your post and I am grateful for your insights. I didn’t find it dark at all. I don’t confuse darkness with those who shed light on it..

One of the things about student horns that I wondered about was “are these just supposed to be tanks for careless kids?” That was the vibe I’d gotten from around and now here. To whatever extent that is true, I definitely don’t want a student model. I’m a responsible grownup with a bit of expendable time and money and a passion for music. And if I may, I can already make a horn play many notes very loudly under control, even vibrato. I understand scales and music theory pretty well, and am ready and eager to expand on all of this. I am not worried about breaking my horn, quitting music or anything like that. Inexpensive is fine, but I don’t like putzing around with cheap instruments, chronic hardware issues, etc. There’s nothing more expensive than a cheap tool, as they say.

From what I’m reading here, along with what I see available online, there are promising trumpets ranging from $200-300 up to $2k. I appreciate all that I’m learning about what might set one student model apart from another.


This one on CL, for example: https://reno.craigslist.org/msg/d/markleeville-olds-ambassador-trumpet/7697619640.html. From what I’ve read, this should be a good trumpet if everything works properly, and would otherwise be worth fixing since it was made to last rather than with our throwaway planned obsolescence approach of more recent years.

Or an old artist-level Yamaha, pricier but also strikes me as a good deal on a quality trumpet: https://reverb.com/item/61610136-yamaha-ytr-6345s-1985-silver-beautiful-like-new-trumpet