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Robert P
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 Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| peanuts56 wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | the first thing that comes to mind is his playing with Billy Taylor on "The Subject Is Jazz" from 1958. We only have access to them now because fortunately they were taped and someone was good enough to upload them on Youtube. When they originally aired the only way someone at home could have captured them would have been with audio recording - no such thing as consumer video back then.
Link should take you to 14:09 one of Doc's solos.
https://youtu.be/UexWRuvJfwQ?t=849
One of several solos he takes during a filmed live set with the Mike Bryan Sextet.
https://youtu.be/islsrbsRO3I?t=143 |
Going to jump in on this regarding Doc's jazz playing. I posted something similar years back.
When I was a college student, I spent a week at a summer jazz camp on the campus of Quinnipiac U. Saxophonist Arnie Lawrence was one of the clinicians along with Danny Stiles.
Arnie played on the Tonight Show Band when it was in New York. He mentioned that Doc was not really a jazz player. His jazz solos were written out for him. I guess he would memorize them and embellish a phrase here and there.
I'd point out Arnie wasn't trying to diss Doc. It was more a statement of fact from someone who was on the band for a number of years.
I believe Tony Scodwell may have chimed in a few years back when I posted this to back up what I posted.
I fell into a conversation with a well known trumpeter/teacher and mentioned this. He said he had always heard the same thing. He also said you had to have some serious skills to play these solos.
Last time I saw Doc was about 11 years ago with the San Miguel 5. He was 85. He had lost a little bit of his upper register, no more E Flats over Double C.I found his soloing to be more passionate, interesting and spontaneous. |
I can't speak from an insider's knowledge but those "The Subject Is Jazz" solos sure sound like jazz to me. The distinction of what's "genuine" jazz becomes fuzzy - jazzers woodshed licks, it's not like Dizzy came up with what he played utterly spontaneously, that there wasn't a pre-rehearsed structure to his solos.
That isn't the only segment Doc was on. I dunno - Billy Taylor picked him to be in the band for a reason.
Another tune they play on that same program is one that they assert was picked at random with no pre-rehearsal - "Three Blind Mice". Doc takes the first solo.
https://youtu.be/UexWRuvJfwQ?t=1020
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peanuts56
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| spitvalve wrote: | | peanuts56 wrote: |
Going to jump in on this regarding Doc's jazz playing. I posted something similar years back.
When I was a college student, I spent a week at a summer jazz camp on the campus of Quinnipiac U. Saxophonist Arnie Lawrence was one of the clinicians along with Danny Stiles.
Arnie played on the Tonight Show Band when it was in New York. He mentioned that Doc was not really a jazz player. His jazz solos were written out for him. I guess he would memorize them and embellish a phrase here and there.
I'd point out Arnie wasn't trying to diss Doc. It was more a statement of fact from someone who was on the band for a number of years.
I believe Tony Scodwell may have chimed in a few years back when I posted this to back up what I posted.
I fell into a conversation with a well known trumpeter/teacher and mentioned this. He said he had always heard the same thing. He also said you had to have some serious skills to play these solos.
Last time I saw Doc was about 11 years ago with the San Miguel 5. He was 85. He had lost a little bit of his upper register, no more E Flats over Double C.I found his soloing to be more passionate, interesting and spontaneous. |
I'll share a story, mind you it's second hand from Neil Slater, who was the director of jazz studies at UNT for many years. He told us about a time back in the 1950s, when he was living in New York. Neil was hanging out in a bar where a lot of the studio cats hung out and Doc came in and was really angry. He had just done a session where his part had some jazz changes on it and he'd had to pass it down to another player in the section and it embarrassed him no end.
No intention of belittling Doc's abilities, though. Knowing his practice ethic, I think he probably worked very hard on his improv from that point on, and I love every solo he recorded, and whether it was improvised or written, it doesn't matter to me. His recordings, especially the ones he did for Command back in the late 50's early 60's contain some phenomenal solos. Granted, these were largely elevator music tracks and Doc was no Freddie Hubbard, but as a kid I spent hours and hours trying to copy licks from those solos because they were so good. He's still my favorite trumpet player of all time. Fantastic tone, incredible control, and flawless technique. |
Is Neil still living? Before Texas he was at University of Bridgeport. One of my best friends manned the bari sax chair in their jazz ensemble from 74-78.
True that Doc was no Freddie, but Freddie was no Doc as well.
I've often thought Allen Vizzutti is the closest player to Doc. I've heard him live years ago and he's very impressive. He's a very good jazz player in addition to his legit and high chops. It just occurred to me that Allen's no spring chicken. He's got to be early 70's. Compared to Doc at 96, he's a kid. |
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adagiotrumpet
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Weekend Warrior wrote: | | Doc has been doing it like no one else can do it for longer than anyone else ever did it. |
Amen |
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Weekend Warrior
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | Weekend Warrior wrote: | | Doc has been doing it like no one else can do it for longer than anyone else ever did it. |
Amen |
Thanks for quoting that, Adagio. I didn't proofread my post and if you hadn't reposted it, I wouldn't have noticed my poor grammar on that sentence. I've since corrected it to say:
"Doc has been doing it like no one else can do it for longer than anyone else has ever done it." |
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Weekend Warrior
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| peanuts56 wrote: |
Going to jump in on this regarding Doc's jazz playing. I posted something similar years back.
When I was a college student, I spent a week at a summer jazz camp on the campus of Quinnipiac U. Saxophonist Arnie Lawrence was one of the clinicians along with Danny Stiles.
Arnie played on the Tonight Show Band when it was in New York. He mentioned that Doc was not really a jazz player. His jazz solos were written out for him. I guess he would memorize them and embellish a phrase here and there.
I'd point out Arnie wasn't trying to diss Doc. It was more a statement of fact from someone who was on the band for a number of years.
I believe Tony Scodwell may have chimed in a few years back when I posted this to back up what I posted.
I fell into a conversation with a well known trumpeter/teacher and mentioned this. He said he had always heard the same thing. He also said you had to have some serious skills to play these solos.
Last time I saw Doc was about 11 years ago with the San Miguel 5. He was 85. He had lost a little bit of his upper register, no more E Flats over Double C.I found his soloing to be more passionate, interesting and spontaneous. |
It's plausible that some of Doc's solos were "cooked up" so to speak, particularly those on studio recordings or on the Tonight Show, but I find it hard to believe that every single time that Doc was called upon to play jazz solos, especially in the early days of his career, that he had the time to write out all of his solos and then memorize them. Sometimes people who want to be detractors will take something that happened once or twice, then exaggerate and try to portray it as something that occurred every single time.
But even if you give the haters the benefit of the doubt and assume that all of Doc's solos were "cooked up," it still demonstrates that Doc could play that style well and play some really good stuff. Part of becoming a jazz player is to learn all kinds of licks, transcribe stuff that the great players have done, practice them over and over, get them under your fingers until they become part of your arsenal as a jazz improvisationalist. Then, playing a great jazz solo is a matter playing those licks in the right places and filling in with some spontaneous stuff in between. Joe Magnarelli admitted in an interview that only 5% of any given jazz solo is improvised, the rest is something that has already practiced and made part of the player's vocabulary. If you don't believe it, listen to 33:19 to 34:00 in the interview linked below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QydvA2Eg7uU
So in fairness to Doc, no one really has a right to diss him for playing cooked up solos because all solos are about 95% cooked up anyway (Magnarelli's number, not mine).
Again, these solos of Doc's proved that if he wanted to dedicate himself to being a jazz player and play spontaneously over chord changes, he could have done that, but the big question is "why should he have?" He wanted to be a studio player. That's what he became. He reached that goal very quickly, but fate called upon him to be much more than that. He went on to have the greatest career of any trumpet player ever. He was seen on television by 30 million people 5 nights a week for 30 years, he recorded over 30 albums, he appeared on many other TV shows and specials, he toured as much as he wanted with big bands, small combos, and symphony orchestras, it was just endless. No trumpet player has had a more illustrious, all-encompassing career than Doc. No one even comes close and there's no one more deserving than Doc. His work ethic for practice was legendary and with this added to his high level of talent, he was the perfect beast.
So considering all of that, doesn't it seem a little silly to diss Doc for choosing not to drag his chops down practicing jazz licks all day long so that he could join the legions of jazz players who shoot up heroin (because they all want to be like Charlie Parker) and play in dimly-lit jazz clubs with an audience of about 12 people, making 40 bucks a night and spending breaks griping to each other about how stupid the public is for not appreciating jazz? I don't know about anyone else, but I think he made the right decision. Given the choice, I much rather would have been Doc Severinsen than Chet Baker. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 8:10 am Post subject: |
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"(One) doth protest too much, methinks.”
Hamlet
I'm curious just who all these "haters" might be. Regardless of how one might categorise him, I read nothing but respect and awe for Doc's ability and achievements. Did I overlook a post or two?
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| peanuts56 wrote: |
Is Neil still living? Before Texas he was at University of Bridgeport. One of my best friends manned the bari sax chair in their jazz ensemble from 74-78.
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Yes, Neil is 92 and still lives in Denton. He retired from UNT 15 years ago. I haven't talked to him since a couple of years before he retired, but at the time he still looked the same as he did in his late '50s when I was a grad student there.
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peanuts56
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| spitvalve wrote: | | peanuts56 wrote: |
Is Neil still living? Before Texas he was at University of Bridgeport. One of my best friends manned the bari sax chair in their jazz ensemble from 74-78.
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Yes, Neil is 92 and still lives in Denton. He retired from UNT 15 years ago. I haven't talked to him since a couple of years before he retired, but at the time he still looked the same as he did in his late '50s when I was a grad student there. |
Hope he's doing ok. The UB Jazz ensemble was a very good band. Guitarist Tony Purrone was a member as well as Joe Curiale. Joe is a well known composer/arranger who wrote charts for Doc and The Tonight Show Band. He was also a pretty good trumpeter and I believe had the jazz chair. I didn't know Joe but met him a few times. We were both with Carmine Caruso at the same time. I met him there a few times. I don't think he plays trumpet any more.
Tony went on to work and record with The Heath Brothers. Tony was playing with Trombonist Sonny Costanzo after college. Sonny did a Sunday night series at a place nearby and would bring in guest artists. Al Cohn, Lew Soloff, Danny Stiles, Frank Foster, Jimmy Heath and Gene Bertoncini are a few names I can recall. Jimmy Heath heard Tony and hired him on the spot. Tony lives the next town from me and is still very active. |
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peanuts56
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | "(One) doth protest too much, methinks.”
Hamlet
I'm curious just who all these "haters" might be. Regardless of how one might categorise him, I read nothing but respect and awe for Doc's ability and achievements. Did I overlook a post or two? |
Mahalo Nui Loa. I did point out Arnie meant no disrespect and neither did I. He spoke quite fondly of Doc and his years with the Tonight Show. He was simply stating a fact from his experience with the band.
BTW, we're heading over to Oahu in October for 5 weeks. Got all our food stops planned. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| peanuts56 wrote: | | BTW, we're heading over to Oahu in October for 5 weeks. Got all our food stops planned. |
I hate you. 
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Weekend Warrior
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| peanuts56 wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | "(One) doth protest too much, methinks.”
Hamlet
I'm curious just who all these "haters" might be. Regardless of how one might categorise him, I read nothing but respect and awe for Doc's ability and achievements. Did I overlook a post or two? |
Mahalo Nui Loa. I did point out Arnie meant no disrespect and neither did I. He spoke quite fondly of Doc and his years with the Tonight Show. He was simply stating a fact from his experience with the band.
BTW, we're heading over to Oahu in October for 5 weeks. Got all our food stops planned. |
The term "haters" was not used necessarily in reference to anyone in particular on this thread but there are plenty haters in trumpet cyberspace who have expressed that same knock on Doc about the jazz playing and in addition, they'll say that he was "overrated" just because he was in the public eye more than a lot of the unsung heroes who play in the studios - which is ridiculous. |
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peanuts56
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | peanuts56 wrote: | | BTW, we're heading over to Oahu in October for 5 weeks. Got all our food stops planned. |
I hate you. |
Tough job, but someone has to do it!!!!!
Definitely will go hear The RHB at The Palace. Usually go hear Led Kaapana. He was traveling last year while we were there. He's a great guy. |
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LadFree
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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I would venture to say that since Doc was playing solos live on the air to millions of people, that would make him want to " Script" an "Improv" solo,and I totally get that; Was he standing next to Wayne Shorter and playing with Art Blakey; That would be a no, and Im sure Doc would be the first to admit that.
He was an entertainer, and one of the best to ever do it..And please dont put down Chet Baker, as he chose his path, and was fantastic too..A different kind of fantastic, but fantastic none the less.
And as we have seen repeatedly, Doc had so much respect for the guys like Clark Terry, Conti Condoli &Snooky from his band, he gave them all features and was proud of his guys..Of course he knew what Clark was able to do,but he was not going to hide him in the section, he would give him a feature..That shows class |
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cgaiii
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Doc Severinsen |
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| Gonya wrote: |
Just world class playing from Doc. In my opinion he is the greatest to ever do it. |
Great stuff.
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rothman
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2023 12:52 am Post subject: |
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Doc with the Barnet band. Harry James spoke of the section as the greatest in history. ..Johnny Howell, if there's a recording of him, it's difficult to find unfortunately.)
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Weekend Warrior wrote: | | peanuts56 wrote: |
Going to jump in on this regarding Doc's jazz playing. I posted something similar years back.
When I was a college student, I spent a week at a summer jazz camp on the campus of Quinnipiac U. Saxophonist Arnie Lawrence was one of the clinicians along with Danny Stiles.
Arnie played on the Tonight Show Band when it was in New York. He mentioned that Doc was not really a jazz player. His jazz solos were written out for him. I guess he would memorize them and embellish a phrase here and there.
I'd point out Arnie wasn't trying to diss Doc. It was more a statement of fact from someone who was on the band for a number of years.
I believe Tony Scodwell may have chimed in a few years back when I posted this to back up what I posted.
I fell into a conversation with a well known trumpeter/teacher and mentioned this. He said he had always heard the same thing. He also said you had to have some serious skills to play these solos.
Last time I saw Doc was about 11 years ago with the San Miguel 5. He was 85. He had lost a little bit of his upper register, no more E Flats over Double C.I found his soloing to be more passionate, interesting and spontaneous. |
It's plausible that some of Doc's solos were "cooked up" so to speak, particularly those on studio recordings or on the Tonight Show, but I find it hard to believe that every single time that Doc was called upon to play jazz solos, especially in the early days of his career, that he had the time to write out all of his solos and then memorize them. Sometimes people who want to be detractors will take something that happened once or twice, then exaggerate and try to portray it as something that occurred every single time.
But even if you give the haters the benefit of the doubt and assume that all of Doc's solos were "cooked up," it still demonstrates that Doc could play that style well and play some really good stuff. Part of becoming a jazz player is to learn all kinds of licks, transcribe stuff that the great players have done, practice them over and over, get them under your fingers until they become part of your arsenal as a jazz improvisationalist. Then, playing a great jazz solo is a matter playing those licks in the right places and filling in with some spontaneous stuff in between. Joe Magnarelli admitted in an interview that only 5% of any given jazz solo is improvised, the rest is something that has already practiced and made part of the player's vocabulary. If you don't believe it, listen to 33:19 to 34:00 in the interview linked below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QydvA2Eg7uU
So in fairness to Doc, no one really has a right to diss him for playing cooked up solos because all solos are about 95% cooked up anyway (Magnarelli's number, not mine).
Again, these solos of Doc's proved that if he wanted to dedicate himself to being a jazz player and play spontaneously over chord changes, he could have done that, but the big question is "why should he have?" He wanted to be a studio player. That's what he became. He reached that goal very quickly, but fate called upon him to be much more than that. He went on to have the greatest career of any trumpet player ever. He was seen on television by 30 million people 5 nights a week for 30 years, he recorded over 30 albums, he appeared on many other TV shows and specials, he toured as much as he wanted with big bands, small combos, and symphony orchestras, it was just endless. No trumpet player has had a more illustrious, all-encompassing career than Doc. No one even comes close and there's no one more deserving than Doc. His work ethic for practice was legendary and with this added to his high level of talent, he was the perfect beast.
So considering all of that, doesn't it seem a little silly to diss Doc for choosing not to drag his chops down practicing jazz licks all day long so that he could join the legions of jazz players who shoot up heroin (because they all want to be like Charlie Parker) and play in dimly-lit jazz clubs with an audience of about 12 people, making 40 bucks a night and spending breaks griping to each other about how stupid the public is for not appreciating jazz? I don't know about anyone else, but I think he made the right decision. Given the choice, I much rather would have been Doc Severinsen than Chet Baker. |
Amen, Bro !
Although, those here that will adamantly deny it, there is definitely a dreaded "cancel culture" on this website.
Apparently, no-one has the chutzpah / temerity to call it as it is.
In-other-words, if one does not strive to excel at improvisation, or possess a formidable jazz chops vocabulary, he/she "is not worthy".
These are the ones I have referred to in other posts, as "jazz snobs", "cork-sniffers".
C'mon -- bring on the hate.
I can ignore anyone. 
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RandyTX
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Whether or not he 'cooked' his solos, or simply practiced way more than most people even think about (he's infamous for it... playing in stairwells, sometimes for hours, BEFORE a gig btw)... anyway, at the end of the day, the one sound I wish I could hear coming out of my bell is his.
I've had the great honor to hear him live a few times, and on his recordings and TV thousands of times, and though some played higher, faster, more technical, experimentally, etc., that tone of his... that sound, especially sitting a few rows out in front of it live, is almost literally to die for, and even in his 80's and 90's he still had that, to the point every other trumpet player in the room had their jaw open in shock hearing it.
If I could sound like that, for five minutes in my life, I could die happy. All the 'oh, his solo's aren't enough "whatever" arguments don't mean diddly to me. He'll always be my favorite player, by a very wide margin over a lot of extremely good other performers.
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Bethmike
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Man of constant sorrow wrote:
It's "cork soakers" - video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Deqx-Xb-yHY
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Independent of this thread, I was just thinking of this the other day. Two things struck me.
One, is that I have, personally, never met, or heard of, a good lead guy who wasn't also a good improviser. To be a great lead player, you, almost have to be a good improvisor to get the right feel for the music.
And, secondly, Doc has just played too many years, in too many settings to not know how to improvise.
Is his improvisational style my first choice? No. So what? What does that have to do with anything?
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