Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:19 am Post subject: High range endurance
Hello, I have a question regarding the development of high range endurance.
I have been playing for about ten years and about a year every day (between 20 minutes or an hour). During the first 4 months that I played daily, my level improved. But now there is no difference. After 20 minutes of playing in high range (c to g or a at the bottom of the staff) I can no longer play at this height. The only way is to blow a lot of air, much more than normal and with less upper lips in the mouthpiece. If I don't do that, the sound (if there is sound) is horrible like a new player playing for the first time.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:48 am Post subject:
A question about 'how you play' -
Are you trying to make your lips buzz - the same way as making a buzz on just the mouthpiece?
Doing it that way is wrong. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:54 pm Post subject:
Sounds like me when I try to play a cornet with a Wick 4B.
Kidding aside (sort of) I agree that you really need a quality teacher and a suitable daily routine if you expect to make regular progress. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
I don't know if that could be a reason, but I put the top of my mouthpiece on the red lip but not the bottom.
My mouthpiece is like 1/3 up 2/3 down.
It's the only way I can play, I've played 9 years without placing mouthpiece on the red but I can't hit any notes over the staff without a lot of pressure. Now when playing on red I can reach C over the staff (with a lot of pressure) but before with the same pressure I could only reach a G. Maybe it's the cause because I read a lot of articles in which it's said it was the worst way to play.
I tried a lot of different positions but nothing other works
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 5:30 am Post subject:
Playing with the rim 'on the red' is usually not recommended, but some people do it that way - and it can work if done properly.
When playing high notes, do you make any adjustment of the amount of rim pressure on your lower lip? Using rim pressure only on the upper lip can cause the upper lip to not be flexible enough for easy vibrations.
While doing long tones, be aware of how you are using lower lip rim pressure - and make small adjustments with more or less pressure to find the amount that works best. The pressure distribution between upper and lower depends on the range of the notes being played - only a small amount of physical movement is needed. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
You need a teacher and an embouchure change. Playing with the rim in the red of the top lip is highly detrimental to everything, barring the extremely rare exceptions...one of which, you are clearly not.
Not your fault that you ended up here, but...teacher and embouchure change. _________________ Professional lower-split 3rd clarinet player.
It's the only way I can play, I've played 9 years without placing mouthpiece on the red but I can't hit any notes over the staff without a lot of pressure. Now when playing on red I can reach C over the staff (with a lot of pressure) but before with the same pressure I could only reach a G. Maybe it's the cause because I read a lot of articles in which it's said it was the worst way to play.
I tried a lot of different positions but nothing other works
They key phrase imho is 'lot of pressure'. The range you're describing shouldn't require a lot of pressure. Counterintuitively, it may be easier to play if you can learn to use less pressure.
The fact that you can reach the note while playing in the red may actually be a red herring: it's not neccesarily a more optimal setting for you, just one that allows you to force your way a bit further beyond your current limitations.
Ideally you'll want to find a teacher who can help you to learn how to play by technique rather than force. It'll be quite a bit of work to unlearn the impulse to use force to play high. But in the end you'll be a much better player for it, and not just range-wise, but also for endurance and tone. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
You’re using too much air.
You already diagnosed one major problem.
Don’t take it from me though.
Go find a couple interviews of Jim Manley or Roger Ingram.
Ok so use less air so the trumpet doesn’t back up on you…. Now what?
Go get a real teacher and invest in your learning.
Even 1 video lesson can be life changing with your technique.
(You already diagnosed a 2nd problem - “nine years & no teacher”
Notice how many hundreds or thousands of competent trumpet players
Who WILL NOT be commenting here to help you. Its hard to take someone serious who does not invest in their craft. (They’re busy working on theirs)
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 Posts: 722 Location: Hereford, UK
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:57 am Post subject: Re: High range endurance
cipetojidi wrote:
Hello, I have a question regarding the development of high range endurance.
I have been playing for about ten years and about a year every day (between 20 minutes or an hour). During the first 4 months that I played daily, my level improved. But now there is no difference. After 20 minutes of playing in high range (c to g or a at the bottom of the staff) I can no longer play at this height. The only way is to blow a lot of air, much more than normal and with less upper lips in the mouthpiece. If I don't do that, the sound (if there is sound) is horrible like a new player playing for the first time.
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:18 am Post subject: Re: High range endurance
cipetojidi wrote:
Hello, I have a question regarding the development of high range endurance.
I have been playing for about ten years and about a year every day (between 20 minutes or an hour). During the first 4 months that I played daily, my level improved. But now there is no difference. After 20 minutes of playing in high range (c to g or a at the bottom of the staff) I can no longer play at this height. The only way is to blow a lot of air, much more than normal and with less upper lips in the mouthpiece. If I don't do that, the sound (if there is sound) is horrible like a new player playing for the first time.
Why this sound and how can I change this ?
Hi, cipetojidi.
Without being able to watch you play in person this is an educated guess. What you describe about your embouchure leads me to believe that you have an upstream embouchure. Players of this type are more prone to the smile embouchure and the endurance issues you described are very much a characteristic of players with a smile embouchure. Ideally you want your mouth corners to remain more or less locked in place for your entire range, so check to see if you're pulling them back into a smiling position as you ascend.
There are some things that upstream players should do that are opposite of the more common basic downstream embouchure types. They also tend to be a little more sensitive to playing wrong for their type than the downstream types. When it's working great you can feel like a hero, but when it's a little bit off it spirals down pretty quickly and can be frustrating. I speak from personal experience.
Quote:
My mouthpiece is like 1/3 up 2/3 down.
It's the only way I can play, I've played 9 years without placing mouthpiece on the red but I can't hit any notes over the staff without a lot of pressure. Now when playing on red I can reach C over the staff (with a lot of pressure) but before with the same pressure I could only reach a G. Maybe it's the cause because I read a lot of articles in which it's said it was the worst way to play.
Again, assuming without watching you play my guess here is that you should stick with the low placement that allows you to play higher and learn to play correctly with an upstream embouchure type. Yes, there are many players who argue that it's the "worst way to play," but they are just assuming that what works for them is best for everyone. It's not so common for players to place on the red of their upper lip, but if that's what suits your anatomy best then you're better off placing the mouthpiece there than trying to play with a less efficient mouthpiece pressure. You're more likely to cause damage to your lips with a placement that's improper for your type.
Quote:
Playing with the rim in the red of the top lip is highly detrimental to everything, barring the extremely rare exceptions...one of which, you are clearly not.
It's not as rare as you think. I had a conventional looking mouthpiece placement up through grad school, but was ultimately more successful when I consciously changed my mouthpiece placement to where it's right on the red of my upper lip. For what it's worth, I'm a trombonist and don't really double on trumpet very well, but here's a friend of mine with a very similar embouchure to mine.
If you firm your lips properly while playing your lips can easily withstand pressure from normal playing, including the vermillion. There is muscle underneath the red of the lips, contrary to what some books and teachers might state.
I wouldn't advise this mouthpiece placement to most players, but when it fits the player's anatomy it's fine. That's my philosophy for all mouthpiece placements, by the way. There are certainly more common patterns, but everyone has a unique face and will have a personal embouchure that has its own idiosyncrasies and quirks. My approach is to learn to work with, rather than against, your anatomical tendencies.
I don't know if that could be a reason, but I put the top of my mouthpiece on the red lip but not the bottom.
My mouthpiece is like 1/3 up 2/3 down.
It's the only way I can play, I've played 9 years without placing mouthpiece on the red but I can't hit any notes over the staff without a lot of pressure. Now when playing on red I can reach C over the staff (with a lot of pressure) but before with the same pressure I could only reach a G. Maybe it's the cause because I read a lot of articles in which it's said it was the worst way to play.
I tried a lot of different positions but nothing other works
PS : I don't have a teacher actually
10 years is a long time to be playing and only being able to "reach" G or even hi C. Your not playing efficiently. most likely using too much air, definitely using too much pressure and possibly using the wrong size mouthpiece, get a teacher, sure, but maybe thats not possible, you optimally want to be able to produce sound with the least amount of pressure and air as possible. check out the bill adam forum to learn about Leadpipe buzzing. 20 minutes a day is enough time to develop how to effciently play notes, more time gives better technique and skills, but 20 minutes is enough to learn the "feel" of the notes. Seriously, you have invested years without the results you want, that means something has to change. Check out Bill Adam info, or better yet fins a Bill Adam instructor.
High C should have less air and less pressure than low C. its all about feel and maintaining your lips buzzing, the leadpipe does this for us, to much Pressure stops vibration, which forces you to add more air, this is just a downward spiral that leads to being able to "reach" G's and C's instead of playing them. You can do it, but its time for a change. Good Luck
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 8:50 am Post subject:
Just thinking out loud, because I just don't know.
I do not mean to make light of any post above or to seem inappreciative of the good will and time put into it - and I might have missed something that would negate my post - but I see nothing to lead me to believe that the OP is a Reinhardt guy. So, I would think there is some background needed to understand these "Reinhardt-ish" concepts.
I've learned just enough of Reinhardt's concepts to know that, if I'm going to apply them, I would need to 1) know a whole lot more about then and 2) to only develop them, in person with a Reinhardt expert.
I'm not sure how much of Reinhardt's concepts the OP can safely apply unguided. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:08 am Post subject:
krell1960 wrote:
... High C should have less air and less pressure than low C. its all about feel and maintaining your lips buzzing, ...
---------------------
Perhaps high C requires less amount of air flow than low C, but I believe that the internal oral cavity air pressure is significantly more for high C than for low C.
I think it is typical to have more rim pressure for high C than for low.
If anyone thinks differently, I'd like to understand your reasoning and experience. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
... High C should have less air and less pressure than low C. its all about feel and maintaining your lips buzzing, ...
---------------------
Perhaps high C requires less amount of air flow than low C, but I believe that the internal oral cavity air pressure is significantly more for high C than for low C.
I think it is typical to have more rim pressure for high C than for low.
If anyone thinks differently, I'd like to understand your reasoning and experience.
i have no way of measuring how much mouthpiece pressure i am applying when i playing high c and above, perhaps it is more than low c, but what has helped learn to play notes up there is the feeling that it feels the same to me pressure wise as when i play low C, they just don't feel that different. i don't know anything about internal oral stuff. i play strictly by how it feels and its always my goal to make every note feel like second line g to my mouth. thats why i like bill adam routines, lots of the start on second line g and expand upward and downward. Arturo talks about this idea in a youtube interview with some one and i also remember another trumpet player talking about how notes should basically feel the same and explained it using chromatics. but anyway these are just ideas of my own that have helped, maybe the op can play around with them.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2023 6:06 am Post subject:
krell1960 wrote:
... but what has helped learn to play notes up there is the feeling that it feels the same to me pressure wise as when i play low C, they just don't feel that different. ... i play strictly by how it feels and its always my goal to make every note feel like second line g to my mouth. ...
--------------------------------
I don't understand your description of every note feeling the same. Especially if you consciously strive to have every note have the feeling of second line G.
I imagine that you do have to make some physical changes moving from note to note and I'm curious about what 'guides' you to make the needed adjustment. Do you devote your attention solely on the pitch of the note, and the adjustments just happen - and you do not detect any change to the feel?
I understand the usefulness of that approach while playing within your 'good range', but what about when playing notes that aren't as secure?
I'm asking because this might be an important part of how various people are taught / learn / develop / etc. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2023 6:24 am Post subject:
It's amazing how much micro-analysing becomes irrelevant by just spending a lot of time in the shed. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2023 8:06 am Post subject:
kehaulani wrote:
I do not mean to make light of any post above or to seem inappreciative of the good will and time put into it - and I might have missed something that would negate my post - but I see nothing to lead me to believe that the OP is a Reinhardt guy. So, I would think there is some background needed to understand these "Reinhardt-ish" concepts.
I'm guessing that your musing is directed at my post above.
Fair enough, I completely agree that the OP will be best served by taking some lessons with a good teacher. But based on cipetojidi's description I suspect that some of the advice he has gotten above is opposite of what he wants to be doing. A lot of otherwise excellent brass teachers would give the same advice because they mistakenly believe that how they play is best for everyone.
Furthermore, I don't believe that the basic embouchure types should be something that only "chop docs" discuss or make use of. It's no harder to understand than secondary dominants and key modulations. The only reason it's not more widely understood is because it's traditionally ignored (or outright dismissed).
Regarding making every note "feel the same," playing sensations are often unreliable, but they are an important type of feedback for players to develop the knack for playing. Depending on what the player is already doing and where he or she needs to go, it might be helpful to make every note feel similar. Then again, it might be better for the student to work on a different sensation.
It's generally established that louder and/or higher playing requires more mouthpiece pressure. What I find more often is that students don't use enough mouthpiece pressure, particularly for lower and/or softer playing. Making every note "feel" the same often means making the low register feel more similar to the upper than the other way around. And upstream embouchure players often find this to be an issue and need to work on bringing their upper register embouchure form into their normal playing range like this.
And to just reiterate, upstream players are prone to the smile embouchure. The symptoms of a smile embouchure are quite similar to the issues cipetojidi is complaining of, so that's where I would start personally. Then again, I haven't watched cipetojidi play, so this is just my best educated guess.
+1 on the Bill Adam advice. If you want free advice that’s a great spot.
(You need to learn that you are ACTIVATING THE STANDING WAVE)
That’s the air ALREADY INSIDE OF THE TRUMPET (nodes etc blablabla)
Learn the resistance without the tuning slide in.
It can be felt once you get a good tone on roughly f in the staff.
Then I’m sure you’ll find more things to do from there.
Translate that “feel” into playing with the horn back together.
THIS IS A MIND SHIFT FROM
BLOW AS MUCH AS YOU CAN AS HARD AS YOU CAN AS FAST AS YOU CAN
High range requires LESS of the {“bad” (not even going to mince words or derail on this) pressure} & less volume of air….(remember you are activating a standing wave and nodes) but faster air. Its a knack thing.
(Why do you think the best ones LOOK LIKE THEY ARE NOT WORKING?!)
They learned these things and then playing every day and practicing
actually improves endurance and the skill sets required to make music.
Another concept vs MASHING A HORN
(Many are able to use the inside rear portion of the lips)
Some call it aperture tunnel etc…
Has your mind been flipped upside down yet……? Its ok it will. Enjoy
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