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BJPWillcutt New Member
Joined: 11 Jan 2022 Posts: 1 Location: Florence, AL
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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:14 am Post subject: Using digital effects with microphone |
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I’m looking for advice or a starting place to mic myself and experiment with different effects. Delays, synthesizing, reverb, and the like across different genres. Anybody have recommendations on gear or different effects that would be fun to play around with? Do I use use pedals like a guitar player? I heard the melody played back on a trumpet at the end of the song ‘Ego Death’ by the band Polyphia with a guest collaboration with Steve Vai and it got me thinking about what would a solo horn album be like if one were to play around with different digital tools to alter the sound.
Best! _________________ CarolBrass 6280
Olds Ambassador
-Brandon |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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It is a deep rabbit hole...
Consider the Boss ME50 is a multi FX - the bass version isn't all that liked (though Christian McBride lists it amongst his gear, so I reckon the issue is much more the user than the equipment... I digress) - you will find these very cheaply used.
I can't quite recall the signal chain I ran with this pedal, but I did a few gigs with it and it worked extremely well - and plenty of things to play with which may inform future excursions into pedal types... if you decided to pursue harmonisers more, or whatever... (again very affordably)
I am fairly sure I ran a DI box with this pedal, whether that was running the SM58 into the pedal or running the pedal into the DI to send balanced to the desk I can't recall. The latter seems to make more logical sense. I can't offer to test it for you because I left it in a wet shed for 2 years and it won't turn on now... stupid.
Good luck!
Mike _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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MichaelHeebs New Member
Joined: 22 Jun 2023 Posts: 2 Location: North Dakota
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 5:53 am Post subject: |
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A piece of gear I recently picked up is the Zoom a1x four pedal. It comes with a phantom adapter for mics that require it, and has a wonderful bank of effects built in. You can also hook it up to a computer and create your own. There aren't too many trumpet specific effects right out of the box but it is meant for pretty much every acoustic instrument, so there's a couple dedicated sounds for everyone. Its only $150 if you already have a microphone.
One bonus feature I've been messing with is its built in looper. I'm not trying to shill for this pedal but its been a really fun tool to get into effects and see what is possible. I have not used it in a live setting yet, just used it practicing and recording so I can't comment on that yet. _________________ Horns:
Carol Brass CTR-5280L-GLT(Euro-D)-Bb-SL Baro Model
Yamaha 8335LA (Gen 1)
Blessing B154 flugelhorn |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2416 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Using digital effects with microphone |
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BJPWillcutt wrote: | I’m looking for advice or a starting place to mic myself and experiment with different effects. Delays, synthesizing, reverb, and the like across different genres. Anybody have recommendations on gear or different effects that would be fun to play around with? Do I use use pedals like a guitar player? .... |
In the past, I used a couple guitar pedals. Specifically the Behringer FX600 Digital Multi-FX Pedal (Flanger, Chorus, Phaser, Delay, Tremolo and Pitch Shifter). I've also used the Behringer RV600 reverb machine, which has some very unique reverb settings.
The Zoom multifunction pedals, as suggested by MichaelHeebs, are another way to go. They are packed full of features, and may include a harmonizer, looper, and amp simulators. But they can be a bit more challenging to program than a simple guitar pedal.
Nowadays, whether I'm playing trumpet or keyboard, I just need a little reverb or chorus, both of which I can get from my amp or PA system, and I've put the pedals away.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Using digital effects with microphone |
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TrumpetMD wrote: | Nowadays, whether I'm playing trumpet or keyboard, I just need a little reverb or chorus, both of which I can get from my amp or PA system, and I've put the pedals away. |
Just an aside, if I were starting out today, I would do just the opposite - do a one-man show, heavy on electronics.
To be completely self-serving, with the insecurities of work and trying to re-steer a large ensemble to fit varying musical requirements, I would just use the flexibility of self-sufficiency and, frankly, keep all the money to myself.
I don't think using electronics, per se, boxes you in to one style. It's in the musician's imagination and creativity where to go. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2416 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Using digital effects with microphone |
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kehaulani wrote: | Just an aside, if I were starting out today, I would do just the opposite - do a one-man show, heavy on electronics. |
Two friends of mine do this, and have a one-man show, mostly pop music, where they sing and play guitar against backing tracks or sequenced drums/bass.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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atrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2012 Posts: 157 Location: Greensboro, NC
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2023 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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I just got a piezo barrel from Ebay via Australia that I recommend for effects over the Silent Brass!! It wires into your mouthpiece and uses standing waves which leads to less feedback issues. So far so good, just need more effects with it! _________________ Adams A1 Tpt.
Olds Ambassador Tpt and Cornet
Warburton, Curry and Stork Mpcs.
Mostly musicals and church gigs with the occasional jazz jam |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1015 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2023 7:34 am Post subject: |
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atrumpeter wrote: | I just got a piezo barrel from Ebay via Australia that I recommend for effects over the Silent Brass!! It wires into your mouthpiece and uses standing waves which leads to less feedback issues. So far so good, just need more effects with it! | In the 1970s I used a pickup on the mouthpiece. It had a piezo mic that worked quite well, but it required drilling a hole in the mouthpiece shank. Is that what you mean, or is there something now that is non-destructive? _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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atrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2012 Posts: 157 Location: Greensboro, NC
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2023 4:03 pm Post subject: Piezo Barrel |
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Yes, but it comes with a plug you can use to play the piece regularly, which works great. _________________ Adams A1 Tpt.
Olds Ambassador Tpt and Cornet
Warburton, Curry and Stork Mpcs.
Mostly musicals and church gigs with the occasional jazz jam |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1015 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2023 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Piezo Barrel |
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atrumpeter wrote: | Yes, but it comes with a plug you can use to play the piece regularly, which works great. | Thanks; that's the same as what I used back then. I agree, the plug (mine had a rubber ring/seal and a flat silver top) worked fine. In those days, before nodes, heavy caps, Amado water keys, loosening spit valve springs etc., it's amazing that having a partially-filled hole in the mouthpiece didn't seem to make any difference. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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jazzjezz Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2010 Posts: 108 Location: SE UK
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 2:31 am Post subject: |
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I have chucked a lot of money at this - it is a rabbit hole.
The big one is balancing the natural sound of the trumpet with the sound of the effects, especially in the live setting.
I have settled on a piezo pick up as described in comments above (with a drilled mouthpiece) and a practice mute as opposed to using a microphone.
The other bit of kit is a dedicated signal manager - I have a Radial Engineering Voco-Loco which allows good control of the input and output signals, also allowing mixing of wet and dry signals. I also have a Radial Engineering Stage Bug specifically designed for piezos.
After you have a reliable signal at a good level the world of guitar pedals are open to you.
My current train is a harmoniser, a phaser, an envelope pedal and then delay and reverb... its still a work in progress to get my head around the loop pedal
Last edited by jazzjezz on Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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atrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2012 Posts: 157 Location: Greensboro, NC
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Piezo Barrel |
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Riojazz wrote: | atrumpeter wrote: | Yes, but it comes with a plug you can use to play the piece regularly, which works great. | Thanks; that's the same as what I used back then. I agree, the plug (mine had a rubber ring/seal and a flat silver top) worked fine. In those days, before nodes, heavy caps, Amado water keys, loosening spit valve springs etc., it's amazing that having a partially-filled hole in the mouthpiece didn't seem to make any difference. |
Haha, yeah I don't notice a difference in playing, but I used a generic 7C that's not my main piece. Nice playing on your album too!! _________________ Adams A1 Tpt.
Olds Ambassador Tpt and Cornet
Warburton, Curry and Stork Mpcs.
Mostly musicals and church gigs with the occasional jazz jam |
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atrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2012 Posts: 157 Location: Greensboro, NC
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 6:36 am Post subject: |
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jazzjezz wrote: | I have chucked a lot of money at this - it is a rabbit hole.
The big one is balancing the natural sound of the trumpet with the sound of the effects, especially in the live setting.
I have settled on a piezo pick up as described in comments above (with a drilled mouthpiece) and a practice mute as opposed to using a microphone.
The other bit of kit is a dedicated signal manager - I have a Radial Engineering Voice-Loco which allows good control of the input and output signals, also allowing mixing of wet and dry signals. I also have a Radial Engineering Stage Bug specifically designed for piezos.
After you have a reliable signal at a good level the world of guitar pedals are open to you.
My current train is a harmoniser, a phaser, an envelope pedal and then delay and reverb... its still a work in progress to get my head around the loop pedal |
Yeah I can see that, so far I'm about $200 in for piezo plus one pedal. I think I can spend another $200 to get an all in one pedal, the piezo doesn't require a pre-amp either like my silent brass does, which is nice but I guess the Loco helps to control the wet/dry more like you mentioned. The looper is what I am itching to mess with, it sounds super full of potential! _________________ Adams A1 Tpt.
Olds Ambassador Tpt and Cornet
Warburton, Curry and Stork Mpcs.
Mostly musicals and church gigs with the occasional jazz jam |
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WestCoastTpt Regular Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2022 Posts: 39
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 9:41 am Post subject: |
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JHs makes the color box v2 that you can run a mic into that starts the signal chain. Pretty cool too because it’s a sort of an eq too!
Pricey but one option.
Sometimes I’ll use my line out from my wireless receiver and send that into my pedals.. I’ll then send that chain into the mixer or amp.
I have a piezo barrel That’s great too but I like a good dry signal I’f possible and the dry piezo is more of a tone than a trumpet sound, if that makes sense.
Fwiw for fx, I have a digital tape delay/reverb and an envelope filter. I use an isolated power supply and for fun, I’ put some led’s under the board haha |
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Speed Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2015 Posts: 295 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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TC Electronic makes a series of pedals that look like the ones guitar players use, but they are designed to use with a microphone. You plug your mic cable in to the pedal and then run an XLR cable from the pedal to the PA.
They do not have the ability to run on a battery, and they must be plugged into a power source. Also, they don’t work well with condenser mics. F you are using a Shure SM-57 or similar dynamic mic, the TC Electronic pedals will work fine. |
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gypsyblues Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2022 Posts: 15 Location: Philly
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 6:04 am Post subject: |
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I've been experimenting with guitar pedals and a trumpet on and off since the 90's. The most important thing I've found is to use a quality preamp first in the chain. The sound gets "tinny" and loses a lot of the trumpet character if you don't use a good preamp. I wouldn't recommend mic-ing straight into a regular guitar pedal board without one due to the sound quality loss.
Like it was said earlier in the chain "After you have a reliable signal at a good level the world of guitar pedals are open to you."
www.horn-fx.com is a good resource to learn about how guitar pedals interact for horn players. These guys have tested quite a few pedals and have informative reviews.
I've sold off most of my electric gear, but am considering getting a Voco-Loco preamp pedal to get back into it. I used to do horn lines with an octave/harmonizer pedal for a good effect. _________________ Andy
'39 Olds Super
'63 and '66 Olds Special
'80 Olds stamp flugel
'55 Besson Euphonium |
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sd4f Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 Posts: 104 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: Using digital effects with microphone |
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BJPWillcutt wrote: | Do I use use pedals like a guitar player? I heard the melody played back on a trumpet at the end of the song ‘Ego Death’ by the band Polyphia with a guest collaboration with Steve Vai and it got me thinking about what would a solo horn album be like if one were to play around with different digital tools to alter the sound.
Best! |
Playing guitar as well, I can say that there's a bit of a fork in the road today because it's a bit of a hot topic on whether to persist down the traditional route of instrument plugged into physical hardware such as physical pedals and amps, or go down the modelling route, or even obliviate dedicated hardware, and just use software solutions on a computer. There's a complete rabbit hole of IR loading (impulse response) where if you have a sound you really like, you can run impulses through it, and record it, then use that output in a modelling amp which will fairly closely reproduce that sound, including playing characteristics, i.e it's not a synthesizer or sampler, but rather captures dynamics and transients as well.
For trumpet, I would probably go down the path of software solutions, for one main reason; electric guitar is an odd instrument in that you generally don't hear what the instrument is doing and the acoustic sound is nothing like the desired sound so amplification is a necessary component to extracting audible sound. Trumpet is the reverse, where isolating the instrument sound is going to be somewhat harder, because it's acoustically loud. For this reason, I would consider recording the instrument, and then fiddling around with a recording in post.
I've also seen the yamaha silent brass used for this, as also mentioned above, which is probably an easy and realtively cost effective way to get line level output and isolate your playing to some extent, without having to go down a costly path of microphones and mic preamps and audio interfaces. |
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atrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2012 Posts: 157 Location: Greensboro, NC
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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Using digital effects with microphone |
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sd4f wrote: | BJPWillcutt wrote: | Do I use use pedals like a guitar player? I heard the melody played back on a trumpet at the end of the song ‘Ego Death’ by the band Polyphia with a guest collaboration with Steve Vai and it got me thinking about what would a solo horn album be like if one were to play around with different digital tools to alter the sound.
Best! |
Playing guitar as well, I can say that there's a bit of a fork in the road today because it's a bit of a hot topic on whether to persist down the traditional route of instrument plugged into physical hardware such as physical pedals and amps, or go down the modelling route, or even obliviate dedicated hardware, and just use software solutions on a computer. There's a complete rabbit hole of IR loading (impulse response) where if you have a sound you really like, you can run impulses through it, and record it, then use that output in a modelling amp which will fairly closely reproduce that sound, including playing characteristics, i.e it's not a synthesizer or sampler, but rather captures dynamics and transients as well.
For trumpet, I would probably go down the path of software solutions, for one main reason; electric guitar is an odd instrument in that you generally don't hear what the instrument is doing and the acoustic sound is nothing like the desired sound so amplification is a necessary component to extracting audible sound. Trumpet is the reverse, where isolating the instrument sound is going to be somewhat harder, because it's acoustically loud. For this reason, I would consider recording the instrument, and then fiddling around with a recording in post.
I've also seen the yamaha silent brass used for this, as also mentioned above, which is probably an easy and realtively cost effective way to get line level output and isolate your playing to some extent, without having to go down a costly path of microphones and mic preamps and audio interfaces. |
If I am understanding you correctly, and forgive me if I am not, but how would this apply to live settings? Which is the application of pedals that I would want to use. For recording what you say makes sense. _________________ Adams A1 Tpt.
Olds Ambassador Tpt and Cornet
Warburton, Curry and Stork Mpcs.
Mostly musicals and church gigs with the occasional jazz jam |
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sd4f Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 Posts: 104 Location: Australia
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Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Using digital effects with microphone |
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atrumpeter wrote: | If I am understanding you correctly, and forgive me if I am not, but how would this apply to live settings? Which is the application of pedals that I would want to use. For recording what you say makes sense. |
A lot of this equipment is usable in a live performance regardless, generally by design. While some might not think of using a laptop with software live, because it may seem like it isn't a good idea, some guitarists are going down that route because once it's setup (that is programmed for what you want), it's a lot simpler to use, and has far less to go wrong, plus is way more capable. No messing around with on stage amps and microphones, guitar signal goes into laptop, laptop does its thing, and then the output goes straight into the PA.
Listening to the polyphia song, it sounds like an octaver was used, that's a pretty normal pedal, most give you control to play an upper octave and/or a lower octave.
If you're already playing live with a microphone, have feedback monitors and are used to that sort of setup, I'd say running some effects would be really simple, as they just need to go in between the microphone and where the signal goes further along. I have no experience with any of this for brass though, as I think I've only performed a handful amount of times where I was playing into a microphone, just about everything I do is acoustic.
Elaborate on your questions, and I'll see if I can point you towards a better resources, because this is quite figuratively a "how long is a piece of string" sort of topic to cover. |
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