Classical Trumpet Technique

[cliffardo]

Hello,

I’ve been reading more about Reinhardt and listening to some people who have taken lessons from his students, like Louis Dowdeswell. Dowdeswell remarks on a lot of traditional orchestral playing advice focussing on support and also choice of mouthpieces being usually too large.

I understand there is some motivation to use smaller diameter mouthpieces for lead playing, but I am curious about a larger point: if a smaller mouthpiece is more appropriate for you and you can still play well, will you get grief from orchestral players? Or, is there a cultural bias against smaller mouthpieces in the classical trumpet world? What is the stance of classical trumpet section players towards Reinhardt thinking?

I ask because I am still returning to the trumpet, and find some traction with the Reinhardt system, but I seem to see mainly lead players going on about it and I have never cared for the “lead sound” and am not interested in reproducing it.

[JayKosta]

Just my thoughts ...

Yes, some players (lead, orchestra, etc.) might have 'belief driven' views about what size mouthpiece is generally appropriate - usually based own their own experience. And I imagine their advice is often directed to someone who they feel has a deficiency that they hear.

MY view -
Use as small a mouthpiece that will give the desired sound and function (tone, intonation, range, flexibility, endurance, etc.)
Use as large a mouthpiece ...
Don't take a '15 minute' mouthpiece to a long session.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[ericmpena]

If you sound good, then you sound good.

In my years of college classical playing, I was never once concerned with what size mouthpieces my section was using. And no one else seemed concerned about my mouthpiece size either.
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[kehaulani]

"Or, is there a cultural bias against smaller mouthpieces in the classical trumpet world?"

What, are they going to go over to you and look into the mouthpiece bowl?

As a long-time conductor and MD, I never cared what equipment a player used as long as it got the desired result. You choose what is best for you and the situation
.
Forget popular trends and who's got the biggest, baddest mpc.on the block. A mouthpiece is just a tool and one picks the best tool, for them, for the job.

But, yes, there is discrimination regarding cup size but ignore them. They don't play your mouthpiece.
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[Tpt_Guy]

Choice of mouthpiece can be effected by embouchure type. Use what works for you.

I tend to a bit leery of players making sweepingly generalized statements, such as "most players use equipment that is too big", unless it can be backed up with a reasonable argument, such as Jens Lindemann's Mouthpiece Rant. Jens argues against too big and too small, describing such extremes as "specialized equipment." It's worth a read.
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[Steve A]

Lots of people who don't play in orchestras for a living have lots of opinions about what they should or should not use for mouthpieces, or, probably more accurately, lots of people who don't play in orchestras have the same opinion that people who do are all playing mouthpieces that make their jobs harder than necessary for no good reason.

It's worth noting that, to get those jobs, those orchestral players have to win a blind audition where they're chosen by a cross section of the members of the orchestra, and to keep the jobs, they have to be approved for tenure by a similar cross section, so it's not like they're being screened by mouthpiece size by some orchestral trumpet illuminati. I doubt that most viola players know or care what number represents a big trumpet mouthpiece vs. a small one, but, all the same, easily more than 90% of the people who are chosen as winners in orchestral auditions play mouthpieces no smaller than 1.5Cs. Maybe when orchestral players explain their choice the way virtually everyone does, by saying "I play the mouthpiece that makes it easiest for me to get the sound and playing characteristics I need for my job", it would be reasonable to assume they might actually know their jobs better than people who do other things?

[Adam West]

[Doug Elliott]

There's something to be said for doing it all.
Josh Kauffman plays lead in the Army Blues, and also frequently subs in the National Symphony - that was him playing on the televised July 4 concert. I'm sure he plays a wide variety of horns (a Yamaha Artist) and a variety of mouthpieces, and with the way he plays no one would question his choices.

[astadler]

Use what gets you the sound you want/need in the most efficient way possible.

That being said, as has been implied above, it’s maybe not the best choice to listen to a lead jazz player’s opinions on what mouthpieces orchestral players should be using. If you are really interested in orchestral playing/getting that orchestral sound, seek out people who play in those groups. They’re not just using the mouthpieces they use because of groupthink.

[Dayton]

[Doug Elliott]

Since this is in the Reinhardt Forum, I will mention some Reinhardt...
In general, IIIA embouchures play better on larger diameter mouthpieces and IIIB embouchures play better on medium diameter mouthpieces and would have endurance and range problems on larger mouthpieces.

[kehaulani]

Not quibbling, just want to know - what is "Medium"? Bach 3C? 7C? What is your context?
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

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Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
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[JoshMizruchi]

[BeboppinFool]

Doc told me that my conception determines my sound. The mouthpiece either helps me or hinders me. Common sense ought to kick in at this point.
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[Goby]

I talked to Allen Vizzutti about this a couple years ago, specifically about playing in orchestras. He said when he was playing 2nd trumpet in the Rochester Philharmonic in college, he used a Schilke 13B (fairly small and shallow for an orchestral mouthpiece) and no one ever remarked on his sound being too bright or out of place. Fitting into an ensemble requires listening, playing in time, matching your colleagues' intonation, style, articulation, etc., and the mouthpiece plays a role in this, but it's ultimately up to the player to fit into the ensemble. I have found that with an appropriately-sized mouthpiece (for me, a Pickett 7D), I can achieve a resonant tone, have clean articulations, access to the upper register, and be able to expend very little energy to play the trumpet, increasing my endurance and efficiency.


There is definitely a cultural bias among orchestral players towards using the largest mouthpiece possible, and very few people are able to make these huge pieces work. Unfortunately, most people don't play in orchestras exclusively, and when you try to make a giant mouthpiece work for different genres or styles (classical solo, chamber, jazz solo, big band, commercial, lead, etc.), you're going to develop bad habits from compensating for a giant mouthpiece or become frustrated with the limitations that such a large mouthpiece places on your abilities.


I wouldn't be concerned with orchestral players "approving" your equipment unless you are already hired and trying to get tenure in a top 5 orchestra (in which case we would be asking you for advice). If you want a sports analogy, playing in an orchestra is a bit like playing baseball; short bursts of intense energy expenditure followed by long recovery periods. Classical or jazz solo playing is like basketball; sustained energy expenditure combined with highly skillful movements. You wouldn't wear baseball cleats to play basketball, but you could get away with playing baseball in basketball shoes.

[Adam West]

[kehaulani]

Adam, point well-made. I think, though, that the dialogue here should take into account that there are hobbyist readers that having a huge mouthpiece does not apply to them. They should not be led to believe that they aren't man enough if they don't play big mouthpieces. Different strokes for different folks.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[HagsJohnstrom]

The vast majority of professional orchestra players in the US use something around a Bach 1, 1.25, 1.5 rim and C or B cup. Many people hunt for old versions (corp/mt. vernon/etc) of Bach's mouthpieces, but there are people playing the new models as well. People also play Stork, Pickett, Schilke, Toshi, Greg Black is starting to catch on, etc...but in general the rims are typically on the large side with large throats.

I play a Bach 1.25 C with a 25 throat and 24 backbore. I have played in a variety of orchestra settings and roles (principal, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, offstage) with that mouthpiece and it basically just kinda works. Can you show up to play 2nd trumpet on a 3C? Sure, but the sound is going to be too thin and you're going to have difficulty making the kind of soft articulation you'll need to blend appropriately, in my opinion. I play a 3C as a "lead trumpet" mouthpiece for pops shows.

The main thing is to make a full, resonant sound that projects well with extremely clear and distinct articulation from very soft dynamics to extremely loud dynamics. 99.9% of people struggle to do this on small mouthpieces.

ALL THAT SAID: many orchestra players don't have particularly good high ranges not just because of equipment but because of sound concept and the balance of chop/air support. I have spent way too much time building my range far beyond what I need for work, just to push the limits. I have never heard a fellow orchestra trumpet colleague play solidly above a high concert F. They can squeak out concert Gs on piccolo but that's where most people seem to top out. The range above the 12th partial is tricky, and the approach to air/chops most orchestra players use really shuts down around partial 9 or 10 in my experience. It has taken me literal years of additional practice to push my range out to the 16th partial (double C) because I had to learn to use my air differently and learn to hear a different tone up there. I can play a solid double C on my orchestral mouthpiece, but the tone isn't what I want and it's less clean/clear than if I pop in my 3C or 3D with a 24 throat.

Ask a decent commercial/pop/rock/jazz player to pick up their horn and just play a high G with a good sound. No problem, nearly all pros can do that. Ask the same of an average pro orchestra trumpet player. They can't do it. There are exceptions, of course!

[Steve A]

Some people have pointed out that classical soloists and orchestral players have very different overall skill sets - comparing baseball players to basketball players, for instance, which is undoubtedly true. However, with Dokshitzer being a notable exception (in quite a few ways), bigger mouthpieces are pretty typical for classical soloists as well.

Maurice André played a 1.5 C on big horns. Håkan Hardenberger plays something close to a 2C. Sergei Nakariakov plays a 1 1/4 C, Tine Thing Helseth plays a 1 1/4C. Alison Balsom plays a 1 1/4C.

(All as per: https://trompemundo.wordpress.com/playerhorn-combinations/)

Someone else can look up and list numbers if they're so inclined, but I believe many of today's prominent brass quintet players also use mouthpieces in basically the same size range, and quintet players really never get the horns off their faces for long.

The bottom line is that there are some notable outliers, but a sizeable majority of people who play classical trumpet for a living, regardless of venue or format, choose to do it with a comparatively big mouthpiece.

[andybharms]

I don’t know many orchestral players, at least full time professional ones, who can’t play above a high F. Maybe not as their trade, because they don’t need to, but it is a skill in their toolbox and reflects an understanding of the function of air speed in all registers.

Mouthpiece choice for orchestral players is a wild example of convergent evolution. Most play a 1 or 1.25 C or B cup, with a rim on the flat ish side, like the Parke or H style rim. Obviously exceptions to this but it amazing how true it is. If it gave someone an edge in an audition to play something else, they would, but it usually doesn’t.
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