Who "Invented" the Reversed Leadpipe?

[trickg]

Most of us know the difference between a standard leadpipe configuration and the reversed leadpipe - an innovation that is supposed to create better air flow in the horn, smooth things out and offer less resistance, but who came up with the idea?

The reason that I ask is because I was reading through some of the trumpet related literature I have this evening and there was a mention that (and I'm paraphrasing here) to give credit to Bach (and by "Bach" I'm assuming "Selmer") for knowing a good idea when they saw it and had copied the reversed leadpipe innovation from another maker.

I had always thought that the reversed leadpipe was first put into use as a regular design feature by Renold Schilke on the 'B' series horns, but that's not who was credited with the innovation.

So who was the first maker to use the reversed leadpipe innovation as a regular feature if it wasn't Schilke?
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Patrick Gleason
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[trumpettyler]

I've seen some very old Holtons with the reversed pipe.

[_dcstep]

Schilke used a reverse leadpipe on the Committee, well before he introduced his B-series under his own brand. I bet that the concept goes back well prior to the Committee, but I don't have any specifics.

Dave
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[trickg]

[trickg]

Ah....here's another interesting site:

http://www.dallasmusic.org/gearhead/Martin%20Committee.html

If the Martin Committee was the first horn to use the reversed leadpipe exclusively, it was designed in 1939...by Renold Schilke.

(Actually, according to the site, the "committee" consisted of Renold Schilke, Foster Reynolds, Eldon Benge, Vincent Bach, and a local player, presumably from the Chicago symphony, however, I've read in more than one source that the horn was mostly designed by Renold, although it was agreed upon by the others.)
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[nacog]

I have a 1924 Holton trumpet with a reverse leadpipe. Got a llewellyn model from about 1930 that has it too.

[Johnny-Highnote]

I think the reversed leadpipe construction is much older-my Courtois Cornett from about 1860 has the same system,so the reversed leadpipe is older than the "modern" trumpet itself

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Dennis


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[trickg]

[cleanhead77]

It's pretty well established that the modern design of the trumpet is attributed to Besson in France about 150 years ago. This is the standard design, without a reversed leadpipe, that still lingers today in most trumpets. The earliest reversed leadpipes I have seen have been on vintage Holton trumpets from the early 1920's, so my bet is that Frank Holton invented the reversed leadpipe about the time of WWI.Since Holton started as a trombone player (??) and at first only made trombones, and since of course a trombone slide is like a large reversed tuning slide, it may have been a logical step for him to apply the idea to a trumpet.
I've seen lots of 19th century cornets with varying styles of leadpipes, Conn and Courtois for instance, but cornets with multiple windings and two tuning slides are different animals.
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[trickg]

^^ Ok, so then it's probably safe to say that while Jerry Callet implemented the reversed leadpipe exclusively on the horns he designs, that he's probably not the innovator of that particular design feature.

Don't get me wrong, most of the Callet trumpets I have had the privilege to play have been excellent trumpets, so you can't take anything way from Jerry when it comes to that, but giving credit to Callet for the innovation of the reversed leadpipe is probably a bit off the mark.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[TimBrown]

It goes back to at least the early 20th century. I've seen a number of Holton New Proportions and Courtiers that have them. Mine has it as well, and it was made in 1912.

Tim
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[tptmed]

The oldest I know of is the Holton Revelation, which was the horn Vincent Bach played before he started making horns. They are actually pretty sweet, and suprisingly"advanced" for such an old horn.

[dave belknap]

I have seen reversed lead pipes on instruments manufactured VERY early in the 20th century, substancially pre dating Vincent Bach's design. I have no memory of the name of the makers of these instruments.

Dave Belknap
Trumpet
Local #47 American Federation of Musicians
Hollywood, California

[Fleebat]

I had a college friend back in the 70s whose parents had an old trumpet on the wall in a shadow box, along with some other items that belonged to an uncle or great uncle or similar relation. I don't remember the brand, but it was many years older than the first Committee. It had a reversed leadpipe, as well as some sort of additional valve arrangement (I believe it was for changing from Bb to A). A trigger-like thing. Definitely had a reversed leadpipe. The bit of history the family liked to tell was that the uncle had always grumbled that, as a member of J.P. Sousa's band, he was not allowed to play that horn. Sousa insisted on cornets. The length and wrap was very unusual on this horn; long, thin, with a small-ish bell and incredible engraving. The finish was kind of a "frosted" silver. I will always remember that it had very pronounced "nipples" on the bottom valve caps, and some sort of decorative "leaf"-looking pieces on the outside of the receiver.

Who can tell us about the dates when Sousa was active as a band leader, and what early trumpets were common at the time? The family had photos of the uncle with Sousa's band in a few midwestern towns, and one that looked more staged, like in an auditorium of some kind with a curtain and backdrops.

Edit: By "early trumpets," I'm referring of course to early versions of the modern, valved trumpet.
Rusty Russell

[CollectBrass]

I can't say who invented it, but I think a good case can be made that Renold Schilke and Frank Holton made it popular in modern trumpets. Since Schilke was on the design team for the Committee, was the designer of the horns that bear his name, and designed many Yamaha horns, he did a lot to popularize the reversed leadpipe. Holton probably deserves some credit too, since he was using that design while a young Schilke was growing up in his factory.

[dave belknap]

Flebat:

The following is a very brief bio of John Phillip Sousa. Incidentally, such things are generally taught in high school band, if the director has a clue....
John Phillip Sousa Born 1854 Died 1932
Major instrument: violin
First apprenticed by his father, to the Marine Band at Washington, D.C. at the age of 13.

Conductor of "The President's Own" (Marine Band) 1880 to 1892.

Conductor and founder of "Sousa's Band" 1892 to 1932.

Cheers,

Dave Belknap
Trumpet
Local #47 American Federation of Musicians
Hollywood, CA

[Fleebat]

Mr. Belknap,

If, buy "Incidentally, such things are gerneally taught in high school band, if the director has a clue...," you mean to impugn the knowledge, capabilities or accomplishments of the man who directed my high school bands (or me, for that matter), you're way off base. Various posts here and around the 'net show that you are a lifelong Sousa officianado; someone who is keenly interested in and has informed himself about details of a leading municipal band director of the nineteenth century.

That not everyone shares this interest means nothing in terms of their musical "completeness," or whether or not they "have a clue." The man you seem to be insulting (my high school band director) had a distinguished career as a revered conductor of bands and orchestras throughout his chosen region. Such was his impact on young people that, of the 18 members of his "stage band" during my senior year, 16 became professional players. Among them are the chair of the jazz dept. at Cal State Fullerton, a former holder of the jazz chair in NTSU's 1 o'clock band, seven (at last count) members of professional symphony or ballet orchestras around the world, and one person (me) who has toured with numerous national recording acts, played dozens and dozens of recording sessions, served as an editor for the world's most popular instrumental music magazine for eight years, taught privately for some fifteen years (with students who have played with the likes of Prince, Shania Twain, Faith Hill, Gretchen Wilson and many others), and holds a contract for the only authorized biography of Chet Atkins.

I studied under (Nobel Prize winner) Walter Mays, and have played (briefly) under the batons of Francois Hybrechts and Kristof Penderecki. Somehow, I don't feel the urge to beat myself up because I have not learned or retained certain minutia regarding the active dates of Sousa's bands. Perhaps my high school band director spent too little time on Mr. Sousa, devoted instead to helping his students learn to play and to gather the kinds of info that would allow them to prosper in the current musical world.

Clueless, indeed. Somewhere in the midwest, there is a wonderful, gentle man enjoying his retirement after helping thousands of young people enter and enjoy musical lives. I believe you owe him an apology.

You are fond of the music played by bands of the late 19th century. That's wonderful. But do not delude yourself; the fact that someone else (me) isn't greatly inspired by this music or preoccupied with its details says nothing about their "completeness." Just for grins, you try one. My band director had a keen interest in Curtis Fuller and Thelonious Monk. Quick -- without pulling a reference book off the shelf -- can you tell me the birth date of either of these gentlemen? Whassamatter? Was your band director clueless or something?

Jeez

Rusty Russell

[oldlou]

I don't know if my old York Wizard cornet,( made to the patent specs and drawings owned by E.A.Couturier ),is the oldest 'PRODUCTION' cornet or trumpet to use this design. The patent date is 1905 and the date of manufacture was 1907. In my personal opnion, it was E.A. Couturier who came up with the idea of using this design first. This was while he was employed by Frank Holton. Holton continued it's use for a very long time thereafter.


OLDLOU>>

[dave belknap]

Felebat:

You clearly have confused me with someone else. The vast majority of my contibutions to these pages have to do with instruments and mouthpieces. I am not a particular fan of Mr. Sousa or his compositions or 19th century band literature. In my contributions to this site I seldom, if ever, refer to those subjects. Were I to pick a personal favorite composer of marches, it would be Kenneth Alford, Karl King or Henry Filmore rather than, with all due respect, J.P. Sousa.

My personal "bag" is big band literature, in particular the work of Harry James, Benny Goodman, William Basie, Edward Kennedy Ellington, Tommy Dorsey, Woody Herman, Les Brown, Ted Heath and Reg Owens, to name a few. Playing or recreating the music of these individuals is my manner of making a living, coupled with performances as a guwest trumpet soloist and or conductor.

Before presuming to give me a lecture, you might check to see if I am the person whom you think me to be.

Cheers,

Dave Belknap
Trumpet
Local #47 American Federation of Musicians
Hollywood, CA

[Fleebat]

Mr. Belknap,

You wrote:

"Before presuming to give me a lecture, you might check to see if I am the person whom you think me to be."

I certainly think you to be the person who suggested that any band director who didn't stop the playing long enough to have the band members memorize dates associated with Sousa didn't "have a clue."
On behalf of a gifted and dedicated teacher who didn't consider Sousa details all that important (and probably hundreds out there like him), I took offense at that, and I still do. Let's back up a few posts and see who was issuing the unwarrented lecture. That is the point of my most recent post, and one that you don't seem to care to address.

As to the identity problem you mention, I suppose I must assume that the David Belknap who posted on the following (including one post about the "biggest thrill of my life" playing with the Marine band as a 13-year-old, which, to me, constitutes a lifelong interest in military-styled bands) must be ANOTHER Dave Belknap, member of local 47. In that case, my apologies to you and the OTHER Dave Belknap:

http://www.delstaigers.com/guestbook2005.htm

http://www.jfbcornet.com/guestbook2005.htm

http://www.militarymusic.com/200411.htm

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=444578&highlight=#444578

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=325913&highlight=#325913

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=292575&highlight=#292575

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=239001&highlight=#239001

p=444578&highlight=#444578

Actually, I'm glad to know that these posts aren't from you, but from another Mr. Belknap. (Right.) The one who posted in the above is the same person who presumes to tell others what a trumpet "should" sound like. Obviously, it should only sound like what HE likes to hear.

Dave, you and I have agreed much more often than not, and have even backed each other up on a few occasions. Please take this to heart: Don't judge or criticize someone you have never met and know nothing about. In your world (and opinion), high school band should include grilling on the details of Mr. Sousa's life (per your intital post in this exchange). Everyone doesn't live in your world, or play/enjoy your kind of music, or hold the same priorities. That doesn't mean they're clueless. Even for someone who is openly judgemental, that is banal.

Rusty Russell