Comeback Mouthpiece Selection

teds87 · Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:20 pm Post subject: Comeback Mouthpiece Selection

I’m back to playing consistently for the first time since about 2007, and I’ve been back at it for about 3 weeks now. I have played on larger mouthpieces since about my sophomore year in high school. I played on a Schilke 18C3d in high school based purely on an online description that said it would give me a “dark, Teutonic sound.” I guess 16 year old me thought that sounded pretty cool, so I went with it. Ha! In college my teacher moved me to a Bach 1 1/2C because he thought my intonation was a little “muddy” on the Schilke, and the 1 1/2C turned out to be a good fit at the time.

So now that I am playing again, I jumped right back in with the 1 1/2C, but I’m starting to wonder if it’s just a bit too big of a mouthpiece for where my chops are at this point in time. My range is ok considering the short time I’ve been back: I can pretty consistently hit an E above high C when my chops are fresh, sometimes higher, which is approaching what I could do in college when I was at my best, but I am using excessive pressure to hit the high notes (not that high range is my only goal!). I run out of steam pretty quickly in terms of endurance. I’ve recorded myself with the 1 1/2C on my Kanstul and on my Super, and I feel like my tone is just kind of dull. So I guess my question is: should I be using a smaller mouthpiece as I build back up? Just wondering what other comeback players have experienced.
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MrOlds · Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:53 pm Post subject:

Your entire system is different now from what it was the last time you played well. You’re starting over with completely different physical abilities.

Give yourself a break and find a piece that is easy for you to sound good now given wherever you’re at. Forget the numbers on the outside of the mouthpiece. You want something that helps you sound good and have fun this time around.

It’s probably smaller than you played before.

chef8489 · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Comeback Mouthpiece Selection

Dayton · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:15 am Post subject:

teds87 · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:31 am Post subject:

teds87 · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:41 am Post subject: Re: Comeback Mouthpiece Selection

chef8489 · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:46 am Post subject: Re: Comeback Mouthpiece Selection

teds87 · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:49 am Post subject:

JayKosta · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 4:23 am Post subject:

If the 'feel' of the 1 1/2 seems right (not too big or too small) then I suggest staying with it (based on your description of earlier mpc selection and choice).

With a largish rim ID, lip aperture size and control is more dependent on the embouchure muscles than on 'mechanical support' from the rim. Those muscles take time to strengthen, so be patient.

About rim pressure - yes excessive pressure can result in being able to squeak-out high notes, but that's not a good long-term solution. My view is that reasonable rim pressure allows the lip to be able to flex at the desired pitch when the necessary aperture size and position has been produced. For me, being aware of, and controlling lower lip rim pressure has allowed for less dependence on upper lip rim pressure for high notes.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
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kehaulani · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 7:49 am Post subject:

My experience is different. I played a Schilke 11 (H) (Herseth) in High School and part of college then switched to a Purviance 4*D4 and played it a long time, professionally. But then I concentrated on non-trumpet, musical things for a good 40 (?) years.

When I came back to the Trumpet it was to the 4*D4 but played around with other mpcs. in that range. I've gotten a little wider diameter and am now playing a Reeves 42/Purviance 5*D4 (between an Elkhart Bach 3-5).

My point is, it's not necessarily the case that your entire system is different now from what it was the last time you played and that you are not necessarily starting over with completely different physical abilities. I didn't. I wouldn't consider myself a killer player, but my reliable performing range was to an E over High C and a playable range to a Double High C.

My other point is that, like me, you might be most comfortable with what you were once familiar. So, I would take it incrementally. If you stick to Bachs and Yamahas (or maybe Schilkes) for the time being, you won't break the bank.

Also, I would reasses your use of a 1+ mpc. As you may know, everything with equipment is a trade-off in tone/flexibility/response etc. and your striving for tone might be, unnecessarily, at the cost of something else.

Have you read Jens Lindemann's Mouthpiece "Rant"?
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763
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JWG · Veteran Member Joined: 27 Jul 2011 Posts: 258

About 15 years ago, I came back to trumpet playing after not playing for over 20 years.

I also played on a 1.5 rim in HS and College.

Fortunately, I did not lose too much fat on my lips, could still fit my teeth retainers from high school, and my 1.5 rim mouthpieces continued to fit my lip size and underlying dentition and feel comfortable to me.

However, if you have lost body fat and thinned in your old age, your lips may have thinned also. Also, if you have lost or replaced teeth, gotten dentures, or had changes in your tooth alignment, you may need to change your mouthpiece. In that case, I would try a Bach 3 rim, which also has a moderate alpha angle like the Bach 1.5 rim.

Now, playing a large rim mouthpiece requires muscle strength. So, I would suggest getting a Warburton P.E.T.E. to strengthen your foundational muscles around your lips that support your embouchure and allow your lips to continue to vibrate sympathetically with the standing wave you create in the horn to start and sustain each note. The PETE is a simple isometric exercise device with a resistance disc on one end and a compression rod on the other end. Just as athletes go to the weight room to build muscle for maintaining and improving their physical strength, high brass players need to do the same thing to have range and endurance.

In addition to the PETE, you can do free buzzing, mouthpiece buzzing, and lead pipe buzzing, e.g., Sandovalves. Again, many people on this forum have very critical things to say about buzzing, but I treat buzzing like jogging or weight training or swimming for an athlete. Athletes build better all-around body strength and endurance by cross-training, and not just by doing their specific sport. Analogously, you can build the delicate muscles in your face by doing a multitude of exercises and not just by playing.

Last month, I did a 3 hour rehearsal followed by a 3 hour concert at Walt Disney Concert Hall, and, as I had regularly used my PETE and engaged in various types of buzzing when watching TV, working on the computer, and driving to work, my chops could have played a second concert immediately afterward . . . however, my mind needed a break after a long 18-hour day where I had to wake up before 5 a.m. and commute 8 hours between 4 cities before the concert due to attending an important graduation.

Before I bought a PETE and did my buzzing exercises away from my practice time, I used to play 3 hour wind ensemble concerts and struggled to get to the end of the concert. After a few months of adding PETE and various types of buzzing to my daily routine, 9 hours of rehearsals and concerts in a day can become a reality, because my embouchure had a supportive muscular foundation around it that allowed me to avoid pressing, to maintain good vibration due to the blood flow to my lips, and to adjust and maintain my aperture and air speed without tiring.

As always, take advice about brass playing with "a grain of salt" because "your mileage may vary" from mine. Just find what works for you. For me, ignoring the advice about practicing more and focusing on building core embouchure strength away from practice gave me the endurance and strength to make my playing better and more productive by eliminating most of my fatigue-caused errors and deficiencies.
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Cuso · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 3:47 am Post subject:

Comeback player 25 year break. Back on the horn for 6 months now. Always played a 13A4A which after 5 months still felt uncomfortably big.

What a wonder; everything has shrunk.

I reduced the ID 0.75mm (6A4A) which felt excellent right from the start. The MP stopped wandering around, which helped center everything and my chops are developing faster than I had originally hoped.

Moral: My body has changed, so I have to be open to ways in assisting myself to meet my goals. It's like going from S300 steel shafts to graphite shafts in your golf clubs.
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gwood66 · Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:14 am Post subject:

Here is my 2 cents based on my experience. Pick one and stick with it.
Minimize the number of variables while you are trying to re-establish the coordination you once had. That will speed (relative term) the process. My experience was that I tried several mouthpieces at the beginning of my comeback and it wasnt until I pick one and stuck with it that started making progress.

I got the most mileage out of tempering expectations, doing something every day even if it wasnt my whole routine (15 minutes is better than nothing), sticking with one mouthpiece, and better practice habits. (resting as much as I played, and stopping before I fully expended myself)

Good luck with your comeback. Hope we run across one another.
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Richard III · Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 6:30 am Post subject:

What kind of music do you want to play? Answer that and pick the mouthpiece that gives that kind of sound and work, work and work.
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BreakFromTheHerd · Veteran Member Joined: 12 Apr 2022 Posts: 139

I'm exactly 18 months into a comeback. I struggled for most of that year and a half with mouthpieces that I now realize were too big for me. I made mediocre progress because I didn't have the endurance to get through a single etude without resting. Yes, it was bad.

About ready to throw in the towel, I decided to reject the "bigger is better" majority and play whatever the bleep I wanted to. Since then, my progress has done a "hockey stick" on a graph. I almost feel 17 again. Ha.

Rhondo · Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:58 pm Post subject:

I started playing trumpet around age 40 and played 2 years, good enough to play in the intermediate orchestra at a junior college. Played 2 concerts, and really loved it, but I quit to devote time to visual art that I was much more experienced and advanced with.

30 years later, at age 70, I want to get back to playing. Actually picked up a Bach Strad LR180S37 (w/25 reversed leadpipe) a couple years ago but couldn't get into practicing regularly. Again I'm determined to get back and take it seriously and have some fun. If all I do is get back to playing with the intermediate college orchestra that will be enough.

I have 2 mouthpieces- a Bach 5C, and Schilke 14A4A. I'm going to assume since I don't remember I have these either because they came with the first trumpet I had or they were recommended to me as a beginner. I'm pretty sure I used the 5C exclusively when I played before. I've compared the two and the 5C does feel a little more solid, tho the Schilke is certainly useable. I don't think I played any higher than the top of the staff before, and I think that's probably fine for how I want to play. A good rich tone is my general preference.

Should I try a 7C or 3C to compare to the 5C? I recall my trumpet teacher saying to stick with one mouthpiece, but maybe because of age an alternative would be better than the 5C? I'm in good health and have never had any major dental work.

PS. I'd like to get back to Fluegelhorn as well but realize that needs to wait until I have some proficiency again on trumpet.

Dayton · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 1:21 am Post subject:

stuartissimo · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:12 am Post subject:

Rhondo · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:03 am Post subject:

Thanks for the responses (sorry I'm not familiar with how to reply directly here).

Meant to ask in my post above-
I see there are apparently clones of the Bach mouthpieces at about 1/10 the cost of the Bach. Are they identical except for the brand name, or in some way of lesser quality?

stuartissimo · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:05 am Post subject:

There's a reasonable chance that they're not exactly the same shape as the Bach ones (alledgedly even Bach themselves weren't always consistent in terms of cup depths and such). The Bach brand is part of what you're paying for, but likely does not account for the full 90% difference in price, so some difference in quality is to be expected. That's not to say they'd be worthless or unsuitable for your current playing needs (without knowing the specific brand it's hard to tell). Personally, I'd pick a somewhat reputable brand if I were looking for a cheaper alternative, if just for concerns about things like dangerous base materials and potential labor exploitation. That cheap price has to be caused by something after all.

You also have the option to buy a used Bach mouthpiece if you don't want to play the full price. As long as it's clean and without plating loss on the rim, it should work just fine.