Double Tonguing Not Clear

[nerdpants19]

Student trying to learn to double tongue:
I can say the syllables "tu-ku" at rapid pace without the mouthpiece.
With the mouthpiece I can articulate clearly two syllables at slow tempos while buzzing. But at any relevant speed, the second articulation using the "ku" syllable is not audible. The result is not a proper articulation, but a fluctuation in tone during the "ku". How can I make my "ku" articulation clear enough that it sounds how it is supposed to sound? (Nearly the same as "tu"

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Jaw04]

I recommend practicing isolated Ku by itself a lot. On the trumpet, not just buzzing the mouthpiece. Ku, rest, Ku, rest, etc. for quite a while until you get the Ku to speak. Then alternate Tu and Ku slowly. Then practice the triple tonguing exercises in Arban starting very slow and gradually increasing tempo.

[JayKosta]

Any suggestions about 'where' in the mouth the KU feeling should occur?
To me, TU feels very forward and with tip of tongue and lips and back of the front teeth.

Is KU a downward arch of the tongue, more towards the rear of the tongue, etc. -- I've never got the hang of it.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[JoseLindE4]

1. When learning double tonguing, there's no rush to get fast. Go slower than you think you need to go for longer than you think you need. The first goal is to make them sound the same. No one should be able to hear a difference or tell which syllable you're using.

2. Isolate the K sound -- you've practiced the T sound your entire playing life, spend lots of time with the K. Practice K alone and all sorts of other patterns (KTKT, KKTT, KKKT, etc.); try accenting different notes -- particularly the Ks. Come up with your own patterns. This can be tedious and frustrating work, so try to make it a creative and interesting process.

3. Start with easy notes -- usually in the middle/upper part of the staff -- and then expand out in terms of range.

4. I like to use the leadpipe to teach the K sound. Go back and forth between repeating T and then repeating K, playing a very resonant note around first space F on the leadpipe without the side. Try to make the T and K sound the same. You can really hear the differences between the syllables this way. Go, TTTT T; KKKK K; and repeat until they're even. Then try the same thing on the horn.

5. Once things are under control in terms of ease and sound, then and only then SLOWLY speed up. Start slower than you think you need to go -- like half the speed you think is slow. Slowly increase the tempo (I like to go up no more than 4 bpm) only when one tempo sounds good. Always start your day at the absurdly slow tempo before slowly speeding up. Always use a metronome. Arban is fine, so is Clarke, or anything else really.

6. Experiment with different mental models for the articulation -- Ku, Ka, Gu, Ga. Observe what they do.

7. A relatively forward K sound (rather than back in the throat) will probably work better.

[JWG]

Tu-ku works well for most people with practice, but every one's oral cavity slightly different.

Even within different parts of one's range, changing syllables can help due to the necessity of a particular tongue position required for the notes played.

Try: Ta-ka, Du-gu, Tu-gu, Da-ka, et cetera.

Main thing: just find something that works with the part you must perform.

As trumpet players, we need to adapt when the most common and reliable methods fail us. Take a minute to introspectively examine what you just did that did not work, think about what you need to do in the most objective way possible, examine the possible variables, and adjust those variables.
_________________
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF

[abontrumpet]

Lots of people have good advice on how to work it up. I am going to share something that helped me with articulation that I was very late to realize: articulation is temporarily sealing the air off from flowing through the lips.

Now, it sounds basic, but when you are working on your "ku" you are, in part, working on the speed and quality of the seal.

I know that the following is a slightly dangerous experiment, but you can see that articulation is this phenomenon by playing a long tone, and then temporarily sealing it with your "T" without changing anything else. When you seal it, you shouldn't really still be "blowing," it should feel like all of a sudden you're now holding your breath (not turning red) easy and at equilibrium. You can then start a note by releasing the seal. It should start very easily. After you get the hang of that you can try and achieve that same thing with your "K."

This should highlight some valuable insights for your articulation across the board. If you can really do it well (articulate properly), it will be incredibly beneficial for your trumpet playing.

[trickg]

People can talk all day about how to learn to multiple tongue and clean it up. Talk is just that - talk.

The way to get better at multiple tonguing is to work on it. A LOT.

During my first enlistment as a military bandsman in my early 20s, I'd do entire practices where I would only work on one area of technique, typically split into 3 separate areas:

1. Articulation
2. Long tones/sound/breath control
3. Flexibilities

Sometimes I'd split articulation into separate things too - sometimes I'd just work on single tonguing - speed, crispness, control. Everything from the lightest attacks and legato to sharp and crisp staccato. Up and down scale patterns and other exercises - getting the coordination between the tongue and fingers is important too. Some days all I would work would be double tonguing or triple tonguing - again, legato to staccato, and I'd work scale patterns so that I could multiple tongue cleanly through passages.

Once you take the time to work on it in a very focused way, you'll start to figure out the little adjustments that are going to clean it up.

Ultimately there's no secret tip, trick or other bits of wisdom that's going to fix it. It's going to be you spending the time to focus and work in the practice room, and you'll have to have the patience to keep diligently working on it even if it doesn't start to improve right away.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[Billy B]

Most articulation problems are a result of poor delivery of the air
_________________
Bill Bergren

[kehaulani]

Play it as if it was a long tone interrupted by the tongue, but with air constantly flowing.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Billy B]

[Don Herman rev2]

It takes more air when tonguing but many folk "back off". Doesn't work that way for me. The tongue should be like a finger flicking through a stream of water (air), not like your hand turning on and off the faucet.
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[trickg]

[Don Herman rev2]

[kehaulani]

[trickg]

[trickg]

My posts above are a bit long - apologies for that.

Ultimately what I'm trying to say is that no matter what instructor a student has or what they tell or assign that student, it's up to the student to put in the work to figure out if what the teacher is telling them is going to help them or not, and as often as not it's the student who winds up figuring things out. An instructor can help guide, but the student has to be the one to put in the focused work to improve, and a lot of times, that's all it is - just a lot of work.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[Craig Swartz]

Try using "ti-ki", as in "ticket" without the ending "t". I learned to double-tongue off horn riding my bike around on a long paper route back in the late 1960s. Wanted to play the 3rd mvt of Hummel (for some reason that now escapes me) and wanted to play faster than I could single-tongue it.

I believe the distance the tongue moves in this syllable is shorter that with "tu-ku" and we're using a more natural word to work from. In te end, however, the flow of wind is the most important component as others have chimed in above.

For example: when teaching Goedeckie "Concert Etude" to a new student I usually start by having them play the double-tongued lines as long, slurred eighth notes in the same pulse tempo before we approach them as sixteenths (2 per eighth). It establishes the melodic line in their ear, establishes the interval mechanics/technique and embouchure set as well. Once this is attained and the student is creating a decent flow on what is not really a difficult passage, adding the duples is often more easy.

One last observation: Some students envision their tongue as actually making a sound during articulation, just as some actually try to use an audible "buzz" while playing. In my "book", the tongue is silent, it is merely a valve that opens and closes to create sound from the energized wind.

[herbievantetering]

No, the articulations (for low range) are wrong.

When you check the Arban's book it's the following:

Tee Kee Tee Kee or Ta Ka Ta Ka for double tongueing.

Tee Tee Kee Tee Tee Kee or Ta Ta Ka Ta Ta Ka for triple tongueing.

When you go Tu Ku, Te Ke or Ti Ki you are in the extreme upper register or on a pivot aperture; then you tongue arch goes more from Ah to Uh and then to Eeh or Eh.

The biggest challenge for triple and double tongueing is being able to do it across the entire modern range of four octaves. You can also use the suggested sillables at the beginning of this thread but you'll miss the tongue arch in the registers and the compressions.

For jazz you also have the Doo Dle Doo Dle Doo Dle in expressive combinations with different sillables.

[trickg]

[kalijah]