Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 6:51 am Post subject: What does "stay out of the red of the lips" mean?
I see this comment frequently on the Forum "to stay out of the red of the lips". What does that mean? If I place a mouthpiece in the lips, I can do nothing other than place the red of my lips into the mouthpiece. I must be looking at this phrase upside-down, but I can't see how. Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 8:08 am Post subject:
My understanding is that it means for the majority of actual rim pressure to be on the tissue that is slightly above the upper red, and below the lower red.
The GOAL being to allow the aperture to vibrate / pulsate without interference from direct-contact rim pressure. If that goal can be achieved WITH rim pressure on the red, then fine as long as it doesn't cause injury or lack of endurance. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
I think it means that WHILE you play you shouldn’t see red lip tissue around any part of your mouthpiece. Rather, the skin.
I have a few friends who play with red lip tissue showing around the mouthpiece and literally EVERY one of them has very limited range and cannot do lip flexibility exercises. They started in a group without any one-on-one attention and now they find it impossible to play the right way.
Here’s Charlie Porter explaining the concept. Hopefully it helps:
----------------------------
This seems to be a good video about 'conventional' rim and lip placement and usage. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 11:48 am Post subject:
Doug Elliott wrote:
It means the poster thinks he knows more than he does.
It's just a simple question.
I have personally never heard of the pink part of the lips having different regions. In other words, I have only heard of the entire lips being "red", "blue", "swollen", etc. It doesn't mean that there is not a red part distinct from a pink part and so forth. It just means that I've never heard of it. And that shows no presumption on my part for the question. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
It probably means not to place your mouthpiece completely on the red part of your lips. I'm not saying that that is necessarily correct, as the strongest player i ever worked with placed the mouthpiece on the red part of his bottom lip. As they say, rules are meant to be broken.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:35 pm Post subject:
After listening to, and watching, the videos it seems that are using the term "red of the lips" as just another way of simply saying "the lips". That is, there is no "red of the lips" different from any other part of the lips. In this context aren't they using the terms synonymously? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 4:49 pm Post subject:
Red of the lips = vermillion
Lots of videos and discussions exist on this topic on the web.
The "lips" includes any of the tissue between your nose and your chin (if you grow a moustache, its on your upper lip), and vermillion or red of the lips distinguishes that part of the lips that has different skin than the rest of your face.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 6:35 pm Post subject:
Jaw04 wrote:
Red of the lips = vermillion . The "lips" includes any of the tissue between your nose and your chin
Oh really? I didn't know that. I thought lips and vermillion were the same. You're saying vermillion is only one part of the lips. Now it's all clear. Thank you! _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 6:34 am Post subject:
There is no inherent reason why the mouthpiece needs to be "off the red." Most brass players won't be able to play well with such a high or low placement, but many do and they can be very fine players.
There are are just a few basic reasons given why some people think it's always wrong to place on the vermillion, but none of them hold water. I did a pretty deep dive on this a while back, which you can read here.
The idea that the vermillion is somewhat more sensitive and prone to damage is not true. The same muscle that is underneath the rest of the lips is present under the vermillion, it is not made up of "fatty tissue" underneath. If it were somehow more prone to damage every brass musician would feel that along the sides of where the mouthpiece is placed. I found one reference that even stated that the vermillion is capable of accepting pressure. Searching through the medical literature on embouchure damage showed that the spot on the lips where injuries occurred is just as often outside the vermillion.
Some argue that such a low or high placement will "cut off the vibrations" or other silliness. You need to take into account a number of factors, including the size of the musician's vermillion to start with. For someone with very large vermilion placing the rim of the mouthpiece on the red can leave plenty of room for the lip to vibrate inside. Furthermore, both lips don't vibrate with equal intensity, one lip should predominate inside. The lip that has greater rim contact on it serves almost like a stable surface for the lip that has more inside to vibrate against. It's not like an oboe reed, where both reeds vibrate equally, it's closer to a saxophone where the reed vibrates against the solid surface of the mouthpiece. You can see this feature in slow motion on this video.
I place my trombone mouthpiece so that the rim is right on the red of my upper lip. I wouldn't suggest that placement for most other players, but it's absolutely the best spot for my anatomy. Here's a friend of mine who has a very similar embouchure to mine. He clearly isn't having any issues with his playing. He used to play lead trumpet in my big band and I can also attest he doesn't have issues with endurance.
When a brass teacher or player says, "Don't play on the red," they are really telling you "I can't play on the red," and assuming that it's wrong for everyone. _________________ wilktone.com
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:21 am Post subject:
Wilktone wrote:
When a brass teacher or player says, "Don't play on the red," they are really telling you "I can't play on the red," and assuming that it's wrong for everyone.
Or, IMO, they're likely telling you that because they've heard others say so, and have never tried themselves, but have accepted it as being right because it's frequently repeated.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:05 pm Post subject:
Posted on another thread:
My understanding (now) is that the "lips" are from the bottom of the nose to the top of the chin. The area in the middle of this is the vermilion - pink on a stereotypical Caucasian - -- or "red".
You can't make a sound on the trumpet without using the "red" unless you have a hole in your cheek that makes a sound like a whale. I hope we can put this misuse of the term to rest.
" _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: What does "stay out of the red of the lips" me
kehaulani wrote:
I see this comment frequently on the Forum "to stay out of the red of the lips". What does that mean? If I place a mouthpiece in the lips, I can do nothing other than place the red of my lips into the mouthpiece. I must be looking at this phrase upside-down, but I can't see how. Thanks.
I was told the following at a young age:
(1) Do not stretch or pull the lips away from the center of the aperture when placing the mouthpiece on the lips (something that Charlie Porter, Wynton Marsalis, and Doc Severinson all do).
(2) Do not allow the top inner edge of the rim of the mouthpiece to touch the red of the upper lip (something that Charlie Porter clearly does). This second point is what I've understood to address the present topic of "to stay out of the red of the lips."
However, after seeing through the years many skillful and highly successful players with varied approaches, I feel reduced to merely "finding what works best for the individual." The Reinhardt Method seems to have the most comprehensive approach to encourage this for players at all levels...but you might find something that works better for you and your students. Maybe?
I did a pretty deep dive on this a while back, which you can read here.
I'll always do my duty to say that this paper and the logic presented in it has many flaws and lacks serious expertise. It would not stand the test of a peer review.
SOME trumpeters can play in the red. They are very few and nearly nonexistent in the professional world. It is very evident when playing in the red is not a functional embouchure for the player at hand.
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