IIIA Mouthpiece Size

[cliffardo]

I've seen it said on this forum that IIIA usually play on wider mouthpieces. Is there any recommendation on just how wide for all around playing vs lead playing vs classical?

[Doug Elliott]

For an actual IIIA "playing correctly" (which is not a given) there are advantages to playing a large rim size. I'm not talking about pairing that with a deep cup. A large rim doesn't take anything away from high range (if playing correctly) but it helps low range to be fuller and more accessible.

This is not true for IIIB's but it is true for some IV's.

[cliffardo]

Are deep cups to be avoided? Is it an efficiency thing? This touches on my anxiety of a few months ago with the image of classical players playing on 1x-1.5C equivalents.

[Doug Elliott]

Rim size is about making your chops works easily and efficiently. Cup depth is about sound, plus ease of high or low. A shallow cup is going to favor high frequencies in both sound and range, and a deep cup is going to favor low frequencies in both sound and range. Cup style and "alpha angle" figures into those things somewhat too.

IIIA generally functions better on medium to large rims (let's say 3c and larger) and IIIB generally functions better on smaller than 3C. IV can go either way. These are generalities but I think you will find that to be true.

The issue with this is that many, many, many, many players are playing as IIIB when they should be IIIA. I see it all the time, and it confuses the issue of mouthpiece size among other things. You can get really good at playing the wrong type, and never realize it's wrong for you.

[juanc]

I'm a IIIA and can't play anything smaller than a Bach 5 rim. I've tried over the years to downsize from the 3-5 (Bach) range and it doesn't feel right to me, so I stopped trying awhile ago. I can play an S cup without a problem in a few brands but smaller rims seems to not work for me.
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[weeeeve]

So I want to make sure I'm not confused here.

Doug- when you say rim size- are you talking about the inner diameter of the cup, or are you talking about the width of the rim itself? Or something else entirely?

Thanks,
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Bach Strad Model 72
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[abontrumpet]

[juanc]

[random_abstract]

[Mike Sailors]

IIIa here. I play Bach 3 rims and larger. I have gone back and forth between 3 and 5 size rims, but I always come back to the 3. It feels and sounds better.
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[JayKosta]

[bixtone]

Doug, thank you for all the great info!
I have a question- I am a IIIA (typed by Dave Sheetz and Chris LaBarbera) and I have experienced the benefits you mention about using a larger diameter. For me range and flexibility is significantly better.

The situation I run into is that I have thin lips and have trouble controlling pitch on wide and deep mouthpieces, I can do quite well only with wide and shallow ones, even when my chops are strong and I'm regularly playing many hours a day.

My problem is that I am blessed with an exceptionally bright IIIA tone, so wide and shallow pieces make my sound too bright for the work I'm doing. I've found myself going back to smaller diameter, deeper mouthpieces to get the sound I need for the gig, though I can feel the smaller diameter isn't working as well mechanically.
Have you encountered this problem with other players, and as a mouthpiece maker, have you found any possible solutions?
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NY Bach
Shires

[Doug Elliott]

Looks like I have a few questions to answer.

"Doug- when you say rim size- are you talking about the inner diameter of the cup, or are you talking about the width of the rim itself? Or something else entirely?"

I thought that by referencing Bach mouthpiece sizes that would be clear. I guess I refer to "rim size" the same way others refer to "cup diameter.". If you don't know, I design and manufacture my own line of low brass mouthpieces, all 3 piece, so my reference to rims and size is very specifically not a cup reference. The cups in my system are a separate part.

=========

My quoted comment about statistics is completely out of context. I don't recall where I wrote that but it was definitely about a different subject that was not at all about mouthpiece choices.
In my teaching I help individuals to play better by fixing their mechanics - I don't push mouthpieces as an answer.

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"My problem is that I am blessed with an exceptionally bright IIIA tone, so wide and shallow pieces make my sound too bright for the work I'm doing. I've found myself going back to smaller diameter, deeper mouthpieces to get the sound I need for the gig, though I can feel the smaller diameter isn't working as well mechanically.
Have you encountered this problem with other players, and as a mouthpiece maker, have you found any possible solutions?"

Well as a (low brass) mouthpiece maker, I make about a dozen cup depths in very small increments, that can work on any (tenor trombone) rim size. A few less for bass trombone, and about a dozen cups for tuba. Far more choices than are remotely possible from any other manufacturer.
If a "shallow piece" is too bright, find something "less shallow" but it doesn't have to be "deep.". There are also things you can do in your playing and practice to adjust your sound to be less bright. Tongue shaping, and/or spend more practice time in the low range.

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"I’ve read this in a few places - could someone please explain why this is the case? How does rim diameter interact with an upstream or downstream embouchure? Thanks in advance, still trying to wrap my head around all of this."

It's not so much about upstream and downstream, it's about the two different downstream embouchure types.
IIIA and IIIB are both downstream but function differently.
IV is upstream but is basically an upside-down IIIA, so there are some similarities.
IV in some cases is more similar to a "lower placement IIIB that has gone upstream" so those players may have mouthpiece needs more similar to IIIB's.

Sorry if this doesn't mean anything to you. Maybe it's time to start learning what Reinhardt was all about. His Pivot System has been around for 80 years now, he published his first books just after he graduated from Curtis in 1942.

[juanc]

[Type3B]

I'm one of those, whom Doug sees often, who was typed as "IIIB for now," only to discover (the hard way!) that I'm a IIIA. Guess I'll have to change my user name! In any event, I was playing a Schilke 10A4a (Bach 7-ish) with acceptable results, but it was really hard work and my sound was thin. I recently switched to a Schilke 12A4a (Bach 5-ish), and it was like someone flipped a switch. Everything got easier and sounds better. Perhaps this supports what Doug has said.
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[Jaw04]

I play Bach 3C size equivalent. I’m IIIA. Larger feels good but is fatiguing. Smaller feels ok too but constricting. I’ve never really gotten my hands on very narrow pieces.

[Doug Elliott]

I am more in the low brass world, but most or all of the same principles apply to trumpet and horn.

Endurance issues can be a bunch of different things, from various aspects of playing mechanics to fine-tuning rim size or shape, and cups styles and backbores, and I suppose "gap" too.

I tend to look at playing mechanics first.

[Mike Sailors]

[MusickMartin]

Does anyone of you who are IIIA play with a smaller diameter mouthpiece like Bach 7 or 10.5?
I think I am a IIIA after lots of reading and testing (college student with not a lot of money right now, but I will get typed one day properly), and have been playing mostly on a shew 1.5 lead piece for a while which has been quite alright for the music I normally play. But my playing in the low register is a bit uncomfortable most of the time. So i'm just wondering if switching to a wider mouthpiece would almost certainly help me, or if there are some IIIA's that play on smaller mouthpieces without any uncomfortableness in the lower register. I know that people have very different anatomy and technique, but it could be interesting to know still.

There's not really any mouthpieces to try where I live unfortunately, so it's hard to say if the reason why i'm uncomfortable is because its a quite shallow lead piece, or if it's the rim size or both. (It could ofc also be a bit because of my technique and pivot..)
My lips and teeth structure are a bit smaller than average FYI. I also think I might have been typeswitching IIIA/IIIB earlier, before I learned about Reinhardt, which might have made me confused about what rim sizes fit me. I've earlier played on various diameters equivalent to bach 7, 3, 1.5 etc, but since my embouchure has changed at different stages (also had braces for two years) i'm still unsure.

(Also, trumpet is just a hobby for me, so I've not had to play other things than horn section / big band music with mostly notes in the middle/upper register, so thats why its been alright to only play mostly on my shew 1.5)

Sorry if that was confusing, any thoughts would be much appreciated!

[Doug Elliott]

Lots of IIIA's play on small mouthpieces. It's just more challenging to play low range correctly and keep it that way as a IIIA but it can be done.