NY Bach "French 23" / "FR.23" bells

[OldSchoolEuph]

OK, another question for the vintage Bach owners - this time REALLY vintage.

One of the shop card markings Roy Hempley and Doug Lehrer said they had no explanation of was those shop cards that have "French 23" or "FR.23" written for bell brass on the card.

Two digit numbers after a brass qualifier in Bach's shorthand are otherwise hundredths of a millimeter thickness indications (ie: 45 is 0.018" stock). 23 would be less than a 0.009" stock, which I don't think you could seam without burning through, stretch without ripping with the hammer, or if you could form it into a bell, avoid crushing with the buffing wheel (or your hand).

Researching the supplier Bach was using, there are three possibilities for metals they could provide: German Silver (silver-looking cupro-nickel used extensively by 19th century makers), classic pale yellow French Brass (which I presume to be the "French" and "Fr." entries without "23"), and a reddish brass. If 23 stands for zinc content (23% vs 77% copper), that would be a rose brass.

So, if you have an early New York Bach with "French 23" or "Fr.23" on the shop card, please see what color your bell brass is and report it here. (Obviously if plated, that would require a wear spot).
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[RETrumpet]

So, a year ago I had this horn put together with a NY Bach 226 bell.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1624098

The bell is some kind gold brass (but a different alloy than modern "G" bells), has a very narrow French bead, but more like it's just folded over flat. And it's VERY light. It's definitely thinner and lighter than a modern lightweight * bell. I noted in that post that it was less than half the weight of my 37G, but I can't find where I wrote that number down, sorry.

This bell model was made in 1946 as part of VB's development efforts with Mager. Unfortunately, there were no valves and thus no serial number to go with it so I could never ask for a shop card to see if this was "Fr. 23". I was looking forward to doing that research with the recent promise of posting the shop cards, but, alas, that was not meant to be. The serials would be between 7,000 and 7500 by my math and there were 7 horns with this bell.
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Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype

[OldSchoolEuph]

[HuberMusic]

Just out of curiosity, how old is the horn in question?

Early on (1920), Bach was advertising and selling French Besson trumpets that were a "special made model for Vincent Bach."

In 1921 he began selling Thibouville & Lamy Symphony trumpets.

No evidence for this, but if the horn is early enough in his production, is there a chance the bell was made by one of the above companies and marked for Bach?
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Huber Music
www.FHuberMusic.com

[OldSchoolEuph]

I unfortunately do not have access to an instrument (that would make this easy). I am working from Roy's information. I believe we are talking about the 1926-1929 window. (possibly just 27/28 )

As for Bessons. I originally thought that the batch Bach was selling was a batch of regular Bessons. However, Josh later came up with one of these horns and it was in fact unique. Also, despite what his family told his official biographer Andre Smith, there were parts of Bach horns that did not originate solely from the workbenches in the shop. I am aware of 4 pre-WWII Bach horns with Besson bells, one of which also has a Besson leadpipe, built around a Bach .462 valve block. (there may be more)
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[HuberMusic]

Interesting, thanks for the additional info on the Besson horns.

Will be keeping an eye on this thread, interesting stuff!
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Huber Music
www.FHuberMusic.com

[interfx]

I know Bach sourced a few valve sets from a French mfg. also, on some (an) early Mercury trumpet in 1926 or so.

What if the French mfg. also provided the bell itself, and not just the sheet brass?

Do you know the serial number range of the trumpets that used the French bell brass? That may narrow it down, and I can also look at the user-submitted Bach instruments in the BachLoyalist.com database to see if I have any owner contact information.

Thanks for sharing those serial numbers? or range to narrow it down it a bit.
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trumpetLINKS: https://www.trumpetLINKS.com
BachLoyalist: https://www.bachloyalist.com

[J. Landress Brass]

[OldSchoolEuph]

[J. Landress Brass]

[yourbrass]

[hoosierben@gmail.com]

FR 23 Shop Card post attempt

[img]https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPd116S_Q1r5PSGoThYygzOMBl-veTiv3AQMpaQ

hhmm, color of Bell
[/img]https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMllo-_A7HaAtx2wVCPqXqJeRw7OVnnV4Qqnphm

Just joined, researching on this old Bach
very unique Bell
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Old Bachs and Bugles