Range Decrease After Main Horn Change

[wZfFIGB4i]

I am at the 2.25 year mark in a comeback after not playing for 40 years. I am in multiple ensembles. I have been playing a Yamaha 8310ZRS for 16 months and have really enjoyed playing it and have (re)developed skills I never thought I would have. One of these skills is range. I have been playing exercises where I routinely could play G6 to Bb7, and most of the time, tension free.

My personal circumstances require me to sell my Yamaha, so I am playing my 1977 ML Bach Strad 37 full time. My range is definitely reduced, with same mouthpiece (Schilke 15B). I feel all sorts of tension creeping in at E6. I am working on my exercises and hope to regain what I had.

I have acclimated to new horns and new mouthpieces, so I know it will take time. I have also developed confidence that I can overcome any difficult music obstacle with consistent practice.

Is this possibly one of things I won't overcome because of the difference in resistance between the two horns?

Is this a case where I may need to compensate with a mouthpiece that is slightly more opened up?
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Bach Strad 37 Bell '77
Yamaha 8310ZII
XO 1700 Piccolo
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn
Conn Director 17A Cornet '68

[JonathanM]

The difference in blow from a Z horn to a Strad can be significant. I'd suggest just giving yourself time to acclimate to the Strad; time can heal many things. You may be tense because of the different blow, and tension is never our friend when playing. I probably prefer the sound of a Strad above all other trumpets, but they can be far from the easiest to play.

You've got Dr. Valve in your area, looks like. He might be able to spend a moment with your horn and judge if it needs anything in the way of alteration... But a good playing band mate's opinion might work as well. Or list your Strad and keep your Z?
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Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super

[JayKosta]

Valve alignment on the B37 might need adjusting -
my simple test is just playing various notes using ALL the possible valve combinations.

If the 'sound quality' when using some combination is obviously 'off' from the combinations that sound 'good' then alignment might be the cause.
And yes, there will be slight differences between the combinations - but you're looking for a 'big difference' that is not typical.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[jeirvine]

I love all my horns, and they all have different plusses and minuses. But for what it's worth, my range is worst on my Strad 37, everything else being equal (PM, chops, etc.) And its valve alignment is spot on.
_________________
1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
1996 Bach 37

[RandyTX]

I sort of feel your pain, I've still got the 37 I bought new in 1980, and have a few things done to it in recent years, but while it still gets 'that sound' that a lot of people are looking for, at least for more 'legit' work, if you'll pardon that expression, it is definitely more work to play in the upper register than just about any other horn I own, or have played in the past.

Maybe that's just 'the way it is' or maybe I've never had one of the 'truly great' examples of a Bach in my hand, like maybe some great old Mt. Vernon that some of the members here might own and love.

I love the way it sounds as much as I ever did, but over time, I've found some alternatives that can get up where you need to be for something like big band, Motown/wedding gig stuff, or anything where you really need to play high, for a long time, two or three hard sets can be brutal on the 37, but signifticantly easier, almost a joke in comparison, on some other horns.

My current favorite for that sort of thing is one of the Yamaha 'Commercial' horns their insane marketing department refuses to sell directly in the US, but are readily available in Europe, and perhaps Asia as well? Not sure about the latter.

It is a reversed leadpipe setup, developed (according to what I've heard) with a lot of pros thorugh a Yamaha shop somewhere in Germany. Anyway, I managed to get ahold of one a couple years back, and it's become my go to horn for a lot more stuff than I expected when I first picked it up.

It took me a while to not worry about D's in the staff being flat anymore, or the G on top of it wanting to float up a bit, and not needing nearly as much 1st and 3rd slide action as I was used to after the 37 for a long time. Once I unlearned those habits and settled into the Yamaha, it seemed like pretty much everything got a whole lot easier.

About the only thing I didn't like was I thought the stock valve springs were a little too soft for my taste, and I swapped them out for some slightly beefier ones that made the action a little closer to the feel I prefer.

I'm not trying to suggest you necessarily need a new horn, or that what works best for me would be the same for you, simply that I put a lot of time and effort into making my 37 less 'stuffy' as you go higher, and nothing ever really solved it. I think it's just the nature of the beast, and the sound is 'to die for' with that Bach bell in my view, but sometimes, the work isn't entirely justified, and I can get 'close enough' in most situations, without that extra work now.
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"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."

[gwood66]

One thing you can check on your Bach is the tension of the water key spring. Reducing the spring tension can really help the blow and playability. Like going from a farm truck with rack and pinion steering to Chrysler 300. Doesn't Charlie Davis play a 37?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKSPIDRJuEA
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Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)

GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345

[Seymor B Fudd]

From my amateur horizon: the 2 Bach horns I´ve owned both made me much more exhausted, restricted my range - but had a fantastic sound.
(Cornet Stradivarus, Trumpet 190S Commercial).

In contrast to my Yamaha 6335 RC which helps me in may ways, not at all restricting endurance nor register.

To my understanding this has to do with the resistance variable. Too little or too much - there is a personal fit!
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Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)

[Nixer]

If all I knew about Bach Strads was what I read in this thread a Strad would be about the last horn I'd be looking to buy. Interesting.
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Getzen 900DLX Bb
Getzen Capri C
Reynolds Contempora cornet
ACB Doublers flugel
Olds Recording trumpet

[Jerry]

Did I miss why you're not selling the Bach and keeping the Yamaha?

[wilder]

[cheiden]

To the OP, I'd find a good player you trust to play your Bach and see if they have similar issues. Maybe the horn needs work. Maybe it's a lemon.

On the other hand, there is no shortage of players that really favor the Yamaha Z horns.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Vin DiBona]

Schilke mouthpieces don't always agree with Bach trumpets.
The throats are bigger as is the backbore.
Three things must match.
You, the horn, and the mouthpiece.

R. Tomasek

[Dayton]

[JWG]

If there is one thing that we have all heard by now, "it's not the horn, it's the player." However, if other players have the same experience on your horn, then it's the horn. So, have some experienced players test out your horn to get their impression.

If nothing else, have you given the horn an ultrasonic bath or diluted vinegar & water soak? "Crud" in the form of bacterial/mineral deposits could prove your nemesis, as that crud loves to collect in the least accessible and, often, critical places within the interior of the "resonance chamber" that is your horn.

All the types of things that people mention above can make a huge difference: valve alignment, water key tension, tension on the lead pipe to bell braces, re-boring and re-aligning the lead pipe (did this on my daughter's horn and everyone who plays that horn now says it's one of the best Bach's they have ever played), excess solder at an internal joint, et cetera.

Also, matching one's mouthpiece to the horn has great importance. Some mouthpieces will not play as well on some horns as they will on others due to gap issues and how the standing wave resonates between one's lips and the bell rim due to backbore, throat, and cup. The acoustic physics of the trumpet stands on the level of rocket science when you look into the details, as a difference in microns in one area can multiply itself by tens or hundreds in another area.

Get some referrals regarding a competent trumpet technicians in your area, make an appointment, pay for an hour of their time, and have a sit down with them about what they see as "off" on the horn. You will likely feel surprised about how little you know about an instrument that you have spent many 1000's of hours to master. LOL.
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF

[trpt4him]

I of course don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing your leadpipe is a stock 25. I didn't know until I played a lot of other horns just how stuffy the 25 can be in the upper register, especially if there are other issues in play like mouthpiece gap. You could consider having a 43 leadpipe put on.

I'm considering the same thing, and sending mine to Charlie Melk to have him put on something more free blowing.

[Craig Swartz]

[Vin DiBona]

Yes. They can and do bottom out. I've had some Schilke's wobble in Bach receivers as well.
My 190/37 in silver is not stuffy at all in the upper register. If you over blow the upper register, it will seem tight.

R, Tomasek

[Seymor B Fudd]

[cheiden]

My most recent Schilke is from the Symphony series. It bottomed out/wobbled on my Bach. I got one sleeved and learned how important the gap is. It made a world of difference.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[spitvalve]

For years my range topped out at a high G. A friend of mine showed up one day with his 6310Z (this was in the 1990s) and he let me try it. After initially overblowing the horn and thinking it was too stuffy, my friend had me back off a bit. And then the horn opened up, all the way to double C. I had never played a double C in my life to that point and there I was nailing it. I thought maybe the horn was magic or something, but...

Suddenly I knew what a double C "tasted" like, and when I went back to my Bach I found I could hit that note and since then I've been able to do it on every horn I own, and on every mouthpiece. Granted, it's not Maynard-quality and it's more comfortable on some setups than others, but as long as I don't overdo it or overblow, it's there. For me, hitting it on my friend's Z horn removed a mental barrier that I'd had since high school.

Now, if I could get it to last more than five minutes...
_________________
Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces