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Vin DiBona
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1473
Location: OHare area
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 Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:25 am Post subject: |
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The nozzle effect does refer to the lip aperture.
R. Tomasek |
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Doug Elliott
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1173
Location: Silver Spring, MD
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: |
Without using a mouthpiece, I can gently and carefully place my fingers on my upper and lower lips and feel lip changes when I move my tongue. The amount of lip change is proportional to the amount of muscle effort I use to move and position my tongue. When I move my tongue with strong muscle effort there is noticeable lip change - without any conscious thought or effort to move my lips.
The muscles that move the tongue interact with many of the other 'embouchure muscles' - it's a complicated system with many moving parts. |
I think you are unique in that way. It's certainly not true for me, and I've never seen that in any student. |
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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ..you are unique in that way. It's certainly not true for me, and I've never seen that in any student |
He is not unique. It is a universal human anatomical link.
It has nothing to do with brass performance (which few humans do) but the native mouth function of eating (which ALL humans do )
It is so automatic that encouraging a beginner student to move the tonge forward quickly to more of an EE position to ascend will automatically and EASILY result in a necessary lip tension increase and immediate success in pitch change to the next partial.
Yes one can also , with concentrated effort on relatively low pitches, move the tongue while holding the lip posture steady. But the pitch does not change. |
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Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2596
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ldwoods wrote: | | I do not follow or understand what he is talking about in the video. Can someone elaborate or explain what is meant my "moving focal point" and "half whistle"? |
It may be his personal dialogue of what he thinks he feels or has convinced himself is what he feels but it's nothing like what I feel from low F# to over dub C.
If visualizing it the way he describes works for him great but comparing the air to a violin string is nonsense. You don't cut the air column in half - other than maybe when circular breathing the air always comes from the lungs.
I think his discussion about whether the lips create the sound is on shaky ground scientifically and pointless - I doubt anyone concerns themselves with where the sound is originating from while playing - one needs to get all the elements working right to play well.
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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think his discussion about whether the lips create the sound is on shaky ground scientifically and pointless - I doubt anyone concerns themselves with where the sound is originating from while playing - |
You are perceptive.
But yes, many DO concern themselves with where the sound originates, and they invent all types of spurious facts that give anything BUT the lips causative factor of pitch. Everything from Claude Gordon and his devotees to, any number of the parroting "air-speed/compression by tongue arch" presentations to the "oral resonance" nonsense purveyors like this guy. All are VERY obsessed with the tongue movement as the "cause" while dismissing the lips and the muscles that control them.
And no, they are not simply metaphorical, they literally believe this stuff.
Even well-known players participate in this delusion. |
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3310
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | ...
But yes, many DO concern themselves with where the sound originates, and they invent all types of spurious facts ... |
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I think the reason for this is that they don't take the time to determine and analyze all the physiological actions / controls / adjustments that are HAPPENING.
For true 'scientific investigation', first having an understanding of all that is physically happening is critical if the the goal is to develop a theory about HOW those things come to be happening.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Doug Elliott
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1173
Location: Silver Spring, MD
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| I can see there's no point in participating in this nonsense, you guys are experts in believing what you want to believe and insisting that it's fact. |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:47 am Post subject: |
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I can change the pitch by changing my tongue shape and orientation. I can change the pitch by changing my aperture size.
Which is better? Depends on the music, the range and the equipment.
What is foolish is arguing that each only works and the other doesn't. Personally I use both methods together. Oh my!
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3310
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Doug Elliott wrote: | | I can see there's no point in participating in this nonsense, you guys are experts in believing what you want to believe and insisting that it's fact. |
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If this was a result of my previous post, then it is important to differentiate between a
'scientific analysis / explanation'
and the
'process to teach an individual to learn how to perform an action'
I think that 'good teaching' can be done without introducing questionable 'science'.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| The tongue position alone cannot not change the pitch without a tandem change in the lips. Believe whatever you wish. |
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bg
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 1292
Location: boulder, colorado
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Vin DiBona wrote: | Last Sarurday, I was fortunate to go to a master clinic featuring Roger Ingram and Brad Goode.
They talked about many things but since both have extraordinary range, let it be said they talked more about the air needed than where their tongue was.
Let it be said that when two masters speak, what is said here is mostly just assumption.
R. Tomasek |
Hi, Thanks for attending!
I'm sorry if I may have sent a confusing message. I believe the back of the tongue should be high for playing trumpet at all times, for the purposes of efficiency, control and timbre.
I did talk at great length about the tongue being high, and about the air stream being small and compressed, but neither of these things are related in any way to range or register.
I hope this helps!
Brad
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www.bradgoode.com |
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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I did talk at great length about the tongue being high, and about the air stream being small and compressed, |
By small and "compressed" I assume you mean narrow, is that correct?
Simply narrowing the flow path does not "compress" the air (increase the air pressure)
Or by "compressed" you may have been referring to increased air pressure by more blowing effort? |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | I can change the pitch by changing my tongue shape and orientation. I can change the pitch by changing my aperture size. |
From all I've read and discussed, I think it's most likely that folks succeed in different ways and that there's not a single right approach.
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bg
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 1292
Location: boulder, colorado
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, narrow airstream in the oral cavity to reduce flow, and compression from the inward pressure of the intercostal muscles.
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Brad Goode
www.bradgoode.com |
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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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The air flow depends on the total resistance of the sytem.
Not necessarily the oral path alone. |
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bg
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 1292
Location: boulder, colorado
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, that was my yearly TH post.
Enjoy yourselves, and I'll check back in during 2024!
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www.bradgoode.com |
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3310
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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As far as a 'narrow air stream' - the location that has the most impact is the lip aperture. If a player does other manipulations that force an air path that is actually more constricted than the aperture, there's a problem.
Using the tongue to get the 'feeling' of a smaller path or faster air is something that many player do and get benefits - but it's because of the effects of how the tongue manipulation affects the aperture, and the corresponding need of the player to adjust their internal air pressure in conjunction with the aperture changes.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay, most player's version of air mechanics can be taken with a grain of salt. |
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kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9033
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| bg wrote: | | Ok, that was my yearly TH post. Enjoy yourselves, and I'll check back in during 2024! |
I learned ages ago that it's not always what is said but what is not said.
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