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AlexBazinet Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2023 Posts: 31 Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:25 am Post subject: How do I play in the high register without embouchure change |
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I'm in the 10th grade. I've been able to hit a clean double G and up for about a year now but my tone in the middle register suffered. I changed my embouchure to accommodate tone and my upper register has struggled. I can still hit a strong D but getting up to the G or even the E cleanly requires me to change my embouchure to the old way. My main problem is relaxing with the old embouchure it takes less air ,pressure ,and tension but as soon as I shift to the new one the sound gets thin and spitty. The actual change I made in my embouchure was a shift closer to the middle of the mouthpiece going from 80 to 20 top to bottom with the old embouchure to a more even 60 to 40. I also play a monette Unity B2 and an old holton T602
Normally I'd just ask my lesson teacher but he's on break till October and my teacher put these notes in my parts. |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1784
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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:47 am Post subject: |
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So, what I understand is that you have an old embouchure that sounded bad, and now you sound better but have less range?
The way you play in the high register without embouchure change is to . . . not change the embouchure. If you're saying that you have a tendency to revert back to the old embouchure, then we would need to know why your lesson teacher thought it was best to move your placement. Unless you chose to move your placement.
Either way, no answer that you get on trumpetherald is going to be a good answer as there are too many unanswered questions and nobody has seen or heard you play. |
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Jason Draper Regular Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2023 Posts: 11 Location: Farmington Hills
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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:53 am Post subject: |
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I believe in what both rafael mendez and sergei narciokoff have said. If you want to play high, then learn to play low. Could describe in some detail what your practice routine looks like?
Regards,
Jason |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Too many moving parts to give a more specific answer, but if it were me, I would keep my original placement and spend a lot of time on long tones and flow studies in your weak register.
Also, flow studies crossing in and out of your solid register to your "weak" register. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jason Draper Regular Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2023 Posts: 11 Location: Farmington Hills
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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:31 am Post subject: |
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I might consider checking out master classes and methodology by Scott Belck. |
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mograph Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2020 Posts: 101
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 5:42 am Post subject: |
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It sounds to me as if you need to develop your embouchure muscles and recalibrate your sensations, using the 60/40 embouchure that gives you good tone. Gradually work your way up from the top of your "good tone" range, slowly.
The Knevitt-Cimera Method for Developing the Upper Register (from qPress) has a series of exercises, or "lessons." The idea is, you do each lesson over three weeks: a slightly different way each week, in terms of dynamics, breath, slur. After the three weeks, you move to the next lesson, which is the same thing, but a semitone higher. I think that this slow progress, but with the good tone embouchure, might help you. _________________ 1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:34 am Post subject: Re: How do I play in the high register without embouchure ch |
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AlexBazinet wrote: | I'm in the 10th grade. I've been able to hit a clean double G and up for about a year now but my tone in the middle register suffered. I changed my embouchure to accommodate tone and my upper register has struggled. I can still hit a strong D but getting up to the G or even the E cleanly requires me to change my embouchure to the old way. My main problem is relaxing with the old embouchure it takes less air ,pressure ,and tension but as soon as I shift to the new one the sound gets thin and spitty. The actual change I made in my embouchure was a shift closer to the middle of the mouthpiece going from 80 to 20 top to bottom with the old embouchure to a more even 60 to 40. I also play a monette Unity B2 and an old holton T602
Normally I'd just ask my lesson teacher but he's on break till October and my teacher put these notes in my parts. |
Post video of yourself playing throughout your range - tongued, slurred.
By embouchure do you mean only the placement of the mouthpiece or the totality of what you do with the facial muscles and jaw when playing?
There's no way to tell what you consider a "strong D" and a "clean G".
Would you be able to play something like this?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dWNIsfBS1-qahKDTcqTntOzK9Tlp2R9F/view?usp=sharing
Post video of yourself playing. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 4:32 am Post subject: |
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My recommendation is ditch the old embouchure, be patient and gradually develop your new embouchure. Sometimes you have to take one step back to be able to take a few steps forward. Trumpet playing is a turtle race. There are no magic exercises, mouthpieces, or horns as much as we all want there to be. You cant rush the process.
FWIW I went through a complete embouchure change in my 10th grade year of high school. It sucked while I was doing it because I went from playing first parts to playing fourth parts. By the end of the year, I was back on first part, had better tone and the best range in the section.
Best of luck and stay with it. _________________ Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)
GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345 |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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I had a drummer friend who could play loud double Cs and above with the most god awful sound. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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AlexBazinet Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2023 Posts: 31 Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like to clarify a few things
1. I'm not going back to the old embouchure intentionally it just kinda happens
2.I'm going to make a recording so you all can get an idea of my actual playing
one other thing is I'm the only one at my school ,other than a trombone player, who can play in this range. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Your making a video will be a big help towards getting good advice.
I suggest that the video shows you playing a true musical piece - maybe a recognizable song - even if you have to take it up an octave to get the range you have mentioned. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:10 am Post subject: |
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AlexBazinet wrote: | I'd like to clarify a few things
1. I'm not going back to the old embouchure intentionally it just kinda happens
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I would recommend either practicing chromatic exercises similar to those in Clarke Setting Up Drills or scale exercises similar to Clarke Technical Studies #5. Its more difficult to change your embouchure setting when playing a continuous string of notes. Focus on not allowing it to occur during the exercise. Stop when you feel the change occurring.
With some time and correct repetitions you should be able to get rid of the old embouchure. _________________ Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)
GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345 |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1532 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2023 8:45 am Post subject: How to play high |
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Hello all,
Alex, I would say to be patient, and wait to get in a routine with your teacher. It sounds with the 80/20, 60/40 that you have a normal overbite, and a normal embouchure. I would say that more work with technique and flexibility will aid you in the long run. You don't want to aid bad habits so take your time. Sounds like a good start for being in 10th grade. I would study videos of trumpet heroes, and watch what they do and how they sound. Vizzuti, Severinsen and others for the commercial side. Watch some classical guys and see how they interpret the various etudes...There are hundreds of videos of very refined players. Pick an artist, and strive to follow their footsteps. There is much more than high notes. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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Wilktone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
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Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2023 6:22 am Post subject: |
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You had a clean double G and changed your embouchure? Perhaps you need to learn to play the rest of your range with that setting with a more open and resonant tone. That might be better in the long term than trying to play with a setting that doesn't allow you to play in your upper register. _________________ wilktone.com |
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Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
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Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2023 6:57 am Post subject: |
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What I'm reading is you're not changing your embouchure, you're changing your mouthpiece placement. You're not changing the way you uses your lips, roll in , roll out, pucker, upstream. downstream. All these can be played with the same mouthpiece placement.
Find your sweet spot and learn to work with it. |
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Wilktone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2023 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Depending on how far you're changing the mouthpiece placement you absolutely can be changing your embouchure. Air stream direction, for example, is determined by the ratio of upper to lower lip inside the mouthpiece, not horn angle. There are also some things that a brass musician can do that constitutes as embouchure type switching that aren't related to changing the mouthpiece placement.
But yes, once your find your "sweet spot," you should keep it consistent and learn to play your entire range with it. Again, I haven't seen the OP play, but as a general rule of thumb I would lean towards going with the high register embouchure and working on playing well with that setting than the other way around.
Dave _________________ wilktone.com |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5682 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2023 9:18 am Post subject: Re: How do I play in the high register without embouchure ch |
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AlexBazinet wrote: | I'm in the 10th grade. I've been able to hit a clean double G and up for about a year now but my tone in the middle register suffered. I changed my embouchure to accommodate tone and my upper register has struggled. I can still hit a strong D but getting up to the G or even the E cleanly requires me to change my embouchure to the old way. My main problem is relaxing with the old embouchure it takes less air ,pressure ,and tension but as soon as I shift to the new one the sound gets thin and spitty. The actual change I made in my embouchure was a shift closer to the middle of the mouthpiece going from 80 to 20 top to bottom with the old embouchure to a more even 60 to 40. I also play a monette Unity B2 and an old holton T602
Normally I'd just ask my lesson teacher but he's on break till October and my teacher put these notes in my parts. |
We've seen some of your other threads, and I defended you at one point with the "git uh teechuuuur!!!!!" crowd because of your claim to be able to hit/play a 4th ledger G. This was in your thread about how to get a darker tone. At the time I assumed you were further along than you probably are. Now I'm not so sure - we have no way to really tell. If you posted some recordings of your playing, we'd have a much clearer idea of what your capabilities are and whether or not a diversion towards developing upper register beyond 2nd ledger C is warranted.
But moving on, from what you've told us before, you do have a teacher. Why not just trust your teacher to help you along the path of advancement as a player?
I think you're trying to force development rather than to continue to steadily work towards attainable goals.
Rather than worry about range, why not worry about how clean you can play through exercises, and how good your sound is? That's what's really important.
You're in 10th grade - you have time to work towards those other goals, but you should take care of what's important first, and should allow for some trust in your teacher that they are giving you what you need to advance at a reasonable pace. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 992 Location: Europe
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2023 4:14 am Post subject: Re: How do I play in the high register without embouchure ch |
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trickg wrote: | You're in 10th grade - you have time to work towards those other goals, but you should take care of what's important first, and should allow for some trust in your teacher that they are giving you what you need to advance at a reasonable pace. |
+1 this well written post by Patrick. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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