Players hesitating on starting notes. Attack? Setup? Air?

[mograph]

Some of the brass players (various ages) in our little neighbourhood concert band seem to be hesitating on their attacks, and as you can guess, it leads to the ensemble's slowing down.

It would be great if they were to engage a teacher, but there's a lot of them, of varying income levels. I will, though, see how many are willing to engage a teacher, and I'll find one.

Anyway, I think that they are not setting up properly: either taking a late breath, having an inconsistent setup, a just-in-time setup, or they're attacking (tongue on) on the beat rather than releasing (tongue off) on the beat.
(If I say that they need to have air at the ready, I'm concerned about their setting up with too much pressure that's then released in an explosion.)

Do you folks have a good, simple way to describe, at least in the beginning, the feeling of a good setup allowing a confident (yet clean) start to a note, on cue?


Thanks!

(once we get everyone synchronized, we can work on quality of setup. Right now, it's just about syncing with the conductor.)
_________________
1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music

[JayKosta]

A lot depends on the player's confidence (and ability) to 'do it right'.

Some people seem to be 'delayed action' - meaning they wait a split second to not be early (and maybe to avoid having poor sound be noticeable, safety within the bunch).

The director could try doing an exercise something such as play a scale of
2 count play on the stick down beat
2 count rest
etc for following notes
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[mograph]

[abontrumpet]

[Brassnose]

I’m not sure I’m reading the context right, but take your neighborhood band to not only contain brass. I play in a similar setting (but our critical section is the violins + the drums) and one way to at least alleviate the issue is to have a rehearsal with only a section (rather than the full band).

That way you could only take the trumpets, start the rehearsal with them, look at the issue, maybe only practice attacks or whatever, and then an hour later you’ll move on to a full ensemble practice. Has worked well in virtually every larger group I played in for the last 40 years (and we keep doing it, mostly for phrasing and intonation).

Maybe you could also hire a brass teacher for a dedicated brass practice (our conductor is a string and piano person and teaching her about realistic brass range and the need for a few breaks throughout a piece took a while, so the musical origin even of a pro does matter).
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Robert P]

Clean attacks is something you have to work on - it's more than just air. Like high notes *everything* has to be working just so.

I watched a clinic by Doc where he was talking about attacks and how he practiced them - he would attack a note, it didn't come out the way he wanted, he'd start over, nope still not quite there, etc. It was an interesting demonstration by of one of the greatest who's ever picked up the horn and seeing that despite the countless hours he'd spent practicing becoming such an amazing player even he still worked on honing and refining it.
_________________
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King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
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Chinese Flugel

[JayKosta]

Another possible item is if the conductor is insisting on the players making their entrances at a lower volume than they can accomplish.

In some pieces a conductor might say he doesn't want to hear the 'entrance' itself, just have the sound 'emerge' at the right time . It take a LOT of control to do that!
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[mograph]

Thanks -- all good advice. At this point, I think we're concerned about consistency and synchronization: to emit a sound on cue, with confidence.

We'll work on quality next week ...
_________________
1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music

[Nathan.Sobieralski]

I'll offer my 2c.

These issues can often be traced to poor coordination between the breath and attack (whatever reason, nerves, confidence, etc), as well as poorly calibrated wind speed/focus for the pitch at hand. The vast majority of players I run into have difficulty on the breathing side of attacking a note. Loud or soft, high or low.

Practicing slower breaths with air attacks (without stopping the wind between) would help I think.
_________________
Dr. Nathan Sobieralski
www.s-mute.com
Principal Trumpet, Sequoia Symphony
Department of Music (Trumpet)
California State University, Fresno

[Brassnose]

Hey mograph, I’ve been working on quality for 40 years now. Not quite there yet
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[mograph]

[kehaulani]

Additionally, - precisely timed (and awareness thereof) of entrances. Two techniques:

Tap the foot precisely to the tempo. If the player can't do that, how can s/he know exactly where to place their downbeats? Practice without the horn.

Practice thinking of the breath cycle as circular. The first half of the cycle, an inhalation in tempo and the second half an expulsion, also in tempo. At the the exact mid-point of this of this, flick the tongue quickly and tension free.

Keep the air flowing and relaxed.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Wilktone]

There are plenty of reasons why players will hesitate on attacks. There's some context we're missing that might help us come up with more targeted advice.

Is it only on initial attacks or is there a hesitation with notes in the middle of the phrase? It could be that some players are hesitating in order to get a better embouchure setting and they could be helped with advice on how to set their mouthpiece and breathe through the mouth corners. Maybe some are using the valsalva maneuver to stop the the air up and they need to inhale and commence blowing without hesitation. Maybe they're bottling up the air with the tongue and need to work on coordinating their tongue backstroke with the blowing.

Does it mostly happen after rests or long notes? Maybe the issue is more related to the musicians not keeping the tempo in mind at all times. They might be helped if they learn to "run alongside the train before they jump on" and keep their internal metronome going (with subdivisions, if appropriate) before they enter.
_________________
wilktone.com

[loudog]

Hi all,

I love the Shuebruk Lip Trainers (the business players section) for this exact thing. It's mostly a timing thing. In addition to being a trumpet professor, I'm also the director of bands at my institution, and I use a variant of these exercises with my band as needed, and it really works well. Something could be easily adapted!

Best,
L
_________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Louie Eckhardt, trumpeter
http://www.LouieEckhardt.com
Associate Professor of Music
Hastings College

[Bethmike]

[Craig Swartz]

[Doug Elliott]

I have played with players who have been conditioned to tap their foot (former Caruso students). It doesn't help at all. They rarely have good time. And it becomes a crutch, where they literally can't play without it.

[MrOlds]

People volunteered to spend the evening away from their families and drive across town after work to enjoy the act of making music at whatever skill level they have. If you’re the music director then you can try to address that problem. If you’re a member then lead by example. I wouldn’t try to fix anyone’s playing issues unless they specifically ask

[mograph]

The music director and I have been discussing the problem, so I’ve been invited to help work on a solution.

It’s not the conductor: it’s a not-insignificant number of players, and I’ve heard them verbally count in time, but not play in time. So it’s in the sound production — the blowing.

It’s not the fingering causing a delay, because trombones do it on notes with spaces between. Fingering problems also sound different in my experience: wrong notes or quick changes as they "fumble" over the note. That's not what we're hearing.

I continue to lead by example (by playing normally and properly) , but their not listening to the group is one of the problems.

The conductor added group exercises to the rehearsal last night, but I had to miss it for family reasons. I'll ask how it went.
_________________
1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music

[mograph]