Switching between Bb and C

[Dkjcliff]

I am new to playing the C trumpet. I just started about 6 months ago and until recently I still did most of my practicing on Bb. I am finding it very challenging to switch from Bb to C in the midst of a rehearsal. The more I play the C, the more it feels like a completely different animal. The C feels like it wants to slot much harder and generally takes more effort to play. After I practice on it I feel much more physically exhausted than after playing my Bb. Is this typical of a C trumpet or is it more likely an indication that my C trumpet is not very good (very possible as it is not one of the standard well-respected C models, it’s a Couesnon)?

Also, I’m wondering if anyone has any special tips on switching back and forth to make it easier. Or do I just need to get used to sticking with one horn per rehearsal? I’m switching based on the horn the music is written for but maybe I need to get used to transposing everything for my C.

Thanks.
_________________
Selmer Radial II
Yamaha YHF-635T Flugelhorn
Martin Indiana Cornet

[falado]

Hi, I experienced similar problems a while back and at the time I had a, let’s sat name brand C that was a great C. I just wasn’t comfortable switching back and forth. I sent the horn to Jim Becker, at Osmun at the time, for PVA etc. it played better, but I still felt like I was going to a much smaller horn. I discussed this with Jim and he suggested I try to find a Bach 239 25A and send it to him for blueprinting. I found an older beat 239 at a store that occasionally has horns for sale in the marketplace. I negotiated a great price. I sent it to Osmun and got back a great horn. I had all of $1500 total into the horn.

I’m now a grad trumpet performance student, about to turn 70, and I play the horn every day. Switching to Bb and back is no problem. The horn plays and sounds great and I’ve even had to switch during concerts with no problem.

What you haven’t told us is what you are playing for horns, your mouthpiece and approach to playing the C? I can tell you that at first I would play the same exercises and etudes like Brandt Studies or Charlie, on Bb, then on the C. After a couple weeks of acclamation I started transposing the Bb parts on the C and also tried to make them sound similar style wise. You also need to realize that to get the desired sound and feel, you’re going to have to spend a lot of time on it. I played my C for everything in orchestra so that meant lots of transposing and matching pitch with the strings or the oboe let alone the trumpet player sitting next to me. I did the same on come of the wind ensemble selections too. Eb and F parts can be fun on a C, like Mahler 1 and 3. Or, maybe you just need a valve alignment. What ever the case, it may take time and listening.
Hope this helps, Dave
_________________
FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[Brassnose]

I’m a decent amateur on Bb and a hack on C so take that with the proverbial grain of salt. For me, the mouthpiece has a dramatic influence. I play an AR ME40 top for most of my playing and while I prefer an S backbore on the Bach I like an L backbore on the C. Takes out some of the resistance and makes for a nice and easy blow. Once I had that settled things started to come together. I will say however that my range on C is not as good as on Bb. I do lose a note or two, but don’t practice C as much as I’d want due to a massive work overload in my day job.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[bagmangood]

When you're practicing outside of rehearsals, are you practicing switching between the horns as well?

Bonus: how much time (relatively speaking) are you putting into practicing on the C? It probably won't feel like your Bb, so it takes somewhat regular practice in order to make yourself comfortable in making it "sing" like your home base of Bb.

As others have said, mouthpiece can make a huge difference (or it can make very little, depends on the player/horn/mpc combo).
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More than one trumpet
A "few" mouthpieces

[Dayton]

[JWG]

I approached Bb and C playing by getting two horns with the greatest similarity . . . same bore size, valve cluster, and nearly identical lead pipe and bell contours.

Thus, my Bb and C feel much the same, and changing between them requires no more effort than blowing some warm air into the horn so that it does not play flat at first.

I merely need to adjust to the shorter length of tubing which results in higher overtones surviving in the standing wave, but a slightly brighter sound just results from the physics of a shorter trumpet.

So, no matter what brand of trumpet you prefer, I would recommend that you get both your Bb and C from the same manufacturer and choose models with similar specifications so that you get a matched pair.
_________________
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF

[claf]

I had the same problem when I started playing on C.
Tried different mouthpieces, but I eventually settled on the same than on Bb (Schagerl Apredato 1-1/2c for dark stuff, GR 67C* for brillant stuff).

I eventually approached the instrument differently, now I consider the C more like a picc and it works better.

In the end it also helped me play the Bb with a lighter touch.
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Bb: Schagerl James Morrison, Van Laar B7, XO 1600i
C: Bach Philadelphia

[spitvalve]

When I got my first C trumpet my teacher just told me to put the Bb in the case for a few days and just practice on the C trumpet until it felt natural. I had few problems switching back and forth after that. Since I already had some piccolo experience it was more helpful for me to approach the C like a piccolo--a lighter blow and more focus on getting a warm sound. Worked for me; YMMV.
_________________
Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces

[Dkjcliff]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

To answer a few questions, I believe it is a large bore Couesnon. But it was modded - it has a Pilczuk leadpipe. I wonder if that is partly why it feels like it slots very hard. The horn is not forgiving if I don’t hit the note precisely where it wants it to be. Not sure if this is more typical with C trumpets.

I am playing the same mouthpiece on both Bb and C - a Monette Unity B4. I’ve tried a handful of other mouthpieces on my C such as Bach 3B, Bach 1.5C, and Curry 3BC. They all seem more difficult to play and more difficult to play in tune, and give me a brighter, harsher sound. Of course, Monettes have an exceptionally large throat and backbore so I would think that would be good for C. Though I know they also make pieces specifically designed for C so I’ll probably look into getting one at some point.

Per the advice, I will stick with my C for a while in the hopes that I can get more comfortable. I like the advice of thinking about it like a picc. I feel like I am naturally gravitating to overblowing to get it to “sing.” I think I need to learn how to focus my air to achieve the same quality with less force.

I’ve mostly been practicing orchestral repertoire I happen to have from the orchestra I’m currently subbing for. I’ll start working on some standard exercises, transposing for C. Does anyone have recommendations on exercises that are particularly helpful in getting acclimated to C?

Thanks again.
_________________
Selmer Radial II
Yamaha YHF-635T Flugelhorn
Martin Indiana Cornet

[Dkjcliff]

Quick update:
In practice this morning, I spent some time focusing on a warm, controlled tone without pushing too hard and it was immediately much easier to play. I also realized that my horn is collecting spit in the first valve. When I pull the slide and blow the spit out, the horn instantly frees up on high register notes involving the first slide. Unfortunately it won’t always be easy to do this in the midst of a piece as the slide has a stop screw.
_________________
Selmer Radial II
Yamaha YHF-635T Flugelhorn
Martin Indiana Cornet

[Craig Swartz]

I'm assuming the crux of the matter is with your C trumpet...

So, spend a lot of time getting to know it. Learn to make the easy transposition and play your Bb music on it, even in some rehearsals if you won't be holding people back. Run your scales, arpeggios, fingering, embouchure, flexiblity and toguing exercises on it. If you have perfect, or strong relative pitch, learn to deal with the one-step higher tonality, which was very tough for me at first. i could play just about any tune, in any key, by ear on cornet almost from the beginning as a 11 year old. Hearing a different pitch than I was used to really messed with me.

Learn it, don't fight with it. Good luck.

[Shark01]

[cbtj51]

I got my Bach CL229/25A about a year into my comeback in 2014. I warmed up on my regular Bb as usual every day, but switched to C for literally everything that I played for months. I got acclimated to the C very quickly and discovered the subtleties, especially intonation and alternate fingerings over a period of weeks. I have continued to warmup initially on Bb regardless of the horn required for the rest of the day. Transitioning from horn to horn during performances has presented no challenges.

My C has been blueprinted as has many of my other horns. I use it every opportunity that I get, helping my transposition skills greatly.

Life is Short, Find the Joy in it!

Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces

[cgaiii]

I am of the school like others that have posted of trying to make my C play pretty close to the feel of my Bb, but others feel comfortable taking a different approach and treating a different playing C as a different horn, perhaps more like one of the higher horns.
My first C was a bit different from my Bb, but I fooled around with mouthpieces, mouthpiece gap, etc., until I got it playing close enough to my Bb that I could switch without too much difficulty. Recently I acquired my dream C, which is essentially the same horn as my Bb but made purposefully as a C (Schilke X3L Bb, Schilke CXL C), and now the transition is seamless even with the same mouthpiece.
So you have to make your choice between taking the C as a different horn entirely or acquiring a C or working with a close enough C so that they play similarly. Both approaches are valid. (And there may be other approaches.)
I took the same approach with my backup Bb, working with mouthpieces and gap to make the transition as smooth as possible.
There will always be some differences between C and Bb trumpets but they can be minimized.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

[andybharms]

Hi there! My advice is to recognize they both function on the same principles (all horns)… song and air. It helps me to not “feel” but hear, and flow exercises by Jacobs and Chicowicz can help this process along. Also very simple tunes that you can sing and easily transpose.

Keep going! The truth is that I don’t even think about it anymore. You can too. Speaking for myself and probably a lot of others, I am mostly translating and producing whatever I play into concert pitch in my head and that’s just another example of it all kind of coming from the same place from a production standpoint.
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Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com

[jengstrom]

If you have always driven a sedan, and then you get a sports car, the new car will feel very different than you’re used to. It might be so different that you have trouble predicting how it will react in various situations. But if you keeps driving it, you will get used to it and after some time you won’t even think about it when you switch vehicles.

Same with horns.

If you switch back and forth between the Bb and the C, even if the C is a different brand, different bore, whatever, you will get used to it.

I do not know how you play, and the following is not a list of absolutes, just general guidelines, but

1. The smaller the horn, the less air it will take. Don’t overblow the C. It won’t feel or behave like a Bb. (The most extreme comparison would be a Bb and a piccolo. You can hurt yourself overblowing a picc, and it will sound lousy.)

2. Relax. Remember the fundamentals.

3. In the beginning, don’t fight the intonation. The C has different quirks than a Bb. You can work on intonation later, after you’re comfortable on the C.

4. In the beginning, use your Bb mouthpiece. Later, you might consider one meant for a C. My experience is that a C mouthpiece may improve the intonation a bit, and maybe open up the blow and the sound a bit, but it won’t be a night and day difference. Lots of players (including me right now) use the same mouthpiece for Bb and C.

5. Several days a week, use the C for everyday practice. Use it for you technical exercised, etudes, whatever.

We all had the same learning curve as you. These days, I can switch back and forth between all my horns without much thought. It will come

As for the horn itself, if you like the Cousenon, stick with it. After you get some proficiency, you may choose to get something different. One thing at a time.

John
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Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc