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Don Herman rev2
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 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | Also, if the trumpet were an amplifier of the mouthpiece only, then the tone would sound like a buzzed mouthpiece but louder and its "amplification" would be consistent regardless of the pitch played.
A typical trumpet with 3 valves is actually seven resonators. (or technically eight)
| Quote: | | Physics is often at odds with what people "know" by observation. |
A poster once wrote that he checked my explanation with a competent physics expert he knew. He now disagrees with both of us. |
A variable (stepped) resonator...
LOL on disagreeing with experts. I am active on an audio forum and the level of "known things" that defy all laws of physics is incredible. Plenty of experts with no engineering or science basis but understand better than we... And I have pretty much the same attitude towards both; I love learning the science, but most of the time I just play (or listen) and don't think about it, whereas they are convinced I spend every waking minute measuring and calculating minutiae.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | LOL on disagreeing with experts. I am active on an audio forum and the level of "known things" that defy all laws of physics is incredible. Plenty of experts with no engineering or science basis but understand better than we... |
And in the brass world you MUST parrot the popular techno babble.
If you don't you are not only a heretic but a bad player. |
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ProAm
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 9:59 am Post subject: |
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I think few people really understand what a sound wave is. We tend to think of waves as what we see on an oscilloscope screen and not the compression and rarefication of this sea of air molecules that we live in.
And then you factor in how each person's brain interprets this information ....
For me, especially how it is mixed with the constant ringing or chirping (like a cicada) I hear all the time that has nothing to do with anything in reality ... it's a wonder I hear anything at all. |
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trompette229
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Most of the answer here is in semantics, but it is important we make distinctions. No, the trumpet is not an "amplifier" in the true sense of the word but yes, it does make the sound louder (just as speaking to a crowd through a simple cardboard megaphone does). I think many use the term amplifier to signify that it increases the volume even though it's through a different process. I don't think that means someone is ignorant and in fact for a particular discussion, may not be the point. |
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lipshurt
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:20 am Post subject: |
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A cardboard cone “megaphone” is an amplifier OF SOME SORT.
Come on, it’s crazy to say that the cardboard cone is not amplifier OF ANY SORT.
This is just crazy talk. Amplifier OF ANY SORT means just that. Electric, resonator, anything that makes sound louder. Anything
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kalijah
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:36 am Post subject: |
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It's not cones we are discussing here.
And no. It's not an amplifier. Just a reflector.
My tone on trumpet does not sound like a louder mouthpiece "buzz" , does yours?
And removing the instrument from my mouthpiece while playing a tone does not sustain the buzz.
It's not an amplifier. Of any sort. |
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Don Herman rev2
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| lipshurt wrote: | A cardboard cone “megaphone” is an amplifier OF SOME SORT.
Come on, it’s crazy to say that the cardboard cone is not amplifier OF ANY SORT.
This is just crazy talk. Amplifier OF ANY SORT means just that. Electric, resonator, anything that makes sound louder. Anything |
A cardboard (or any other material) cannot add energy into the sound. An amplifier draws power from another source (power supply or whatever) and amplifies the input signal to produce more power at the output. A megaphone concentrates and directs (or, focuses) the available energy into a smaller area so it will carry farther, albeit with more limited coverage area, but does not add more power to the source (person speaking). An amplified megaphone utilizes another power source (typically battery-powered) to increase power output.
But, apparently all the engineers, physicists, and scientists in the world are crazy. Oh well.
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trompette229
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Halflip
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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For those who have demonstrated a persistent passion for a particular perspective pertaining to this thread's topic, what is your goal? What has to happen for you to conclude that you have achieved some sort of satisfactory closure?
Just curious.
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Steve A
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| lipshurt wrote: | A cardboard cone “megaphone” is an amplifier OF SOME SORT.
Come on, it’s crazy to say that the cardboard cone is not amplifier OF ANY SORT.
This is just crazy talk. Amplifier OF ANY SORT means just that. Electric, resonator, anything that makes sound louder. Anything |
Giving this one more try:
The trumpet does something special and different to our buzz than what an amplifier does. For instance: it doesn't make your voice louder. If you try to shout into your mouthpiece while in the playing position, it certainly won't make your voice louder than what it would be if you shouted without the trumpet in the way. However, with a particular type of input, it does something dramatic - it changes the sound from a buzz to a musical tone (hopefully), and makes it much more powerful, as well as more easily produced. It does more than amplify, but it only does it for certain things, because it's not an amplifier, which basically does the same job on every input. |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| trompette229 wrote: | | It feels (as it often does) that you're (kalijah) trying to be contrary, perhaps when not necessary. |
From my perspective, it appears you and lipshurt are the ones trying to be contrary, perhaps when not necessary. The thread is called "one for the physicists" but you disagree with proper word usage from the perspective of physics.
Imagine calling Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 a sonnet and saying and saying "well, it's kind of like a poem to me."
But on this specific point (amplifier vs resonator), if we think of the trumpet as an amplifier we must change our entire approach to be lip buzzing/mouthpiece buzzing oriented. If we think of it as a resonator (because it is), then we can actually take logical steps to improving based on this fundamental knowledge. It's a HUGE distinction, which you are missing.
(PS I love your shouting into the mouthpiece anology Steve A, because when I shout into my trumpet, the result is a much quieter version of my shout)
Last edited by abontrumpet on Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve A wrote: | | ...it changes the sound from a buzz to a musical tone (hopefully), and makes it much more powerful, ... |
--------------------------
This is where the contention starts ...
It doesn't add power (make anything 'more powerful') - it manipulates the player's 'energy output' into a high proportion of sound energy that has loudness.
I use the word 'manipulates' on purpose because in general the player is NOT attempting to actually introduce 'sound energy' into the instrument - the player is just producing controlled air flow, and along with the player's lip tension the instrument does the rest.
It does seem to get silly trying to go into such detailed explanations, but it seems that some people really believe that the instrument itself somehow increases the input energy (or work) into a larger amount of output energy - maybe not here/now, but some 10 year old beginner.
The sound output might seem loud and powerful, but it does not 'in physics talk' have more energy or power than the input from the player.
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KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
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trompette229
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | | trompette229 wrote: | | It feels (as it often does) that you're (kalijah) trying to be contrary, perhaps when not necessary. |
From my perspective, it appears you and lipshurt are the ones trying to be contrary, perhaps when not necessary. The thread is called "one for the physicists" but you disagree with proper word usage from the perspective of physics.
Imagine calling Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 a sonnet and saying and saying "well, it's kind of like a poem to me."
But on this specific point (amplifier vs resonator), if we think of the trumpet as an amplifier we must change our entire approach to be lip buzzing/mouthpiece buzzing oriented. If we think of it as a resonator (because it is), then we can actually take logical steps to improving based on this fundamental knowledge. It's a HUGE distinction, which you are missing.
(PS I love your shouting into the mouthpiece anology Steve A, because when I shout into my trumpet, the result is a much quieter version of my shout) |
Probably just a misunderstanding, I'm not one of the folks saying the trumpet is an amplifier. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think we've already established the trumpet isn't technically a true amplifier but saying it doesn't increase the volume in ANY way may be an argument that doesn't need to happen. |
I never said that the trumpet sound was not louder than a mouthpiece buzz with the same air power input in each case.
That argument is indeed not happening because I never argued that. |
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trompette229
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | I think we've already established the trumpet isn't technically a true amplifier but saying it doesn't increase the volume in ANY way may be an argument that doesn't need to happen. |
I never said that the trumpet sound was not louder than a mouthpiece buzz with the same air power input in each case.
That argument is indeed not happening because I never argued that. |
That's great, then many of us have some agreement. Maybe it's still more the semantics. I believe the point is that the trumpet can amplify the sound (which it sounds like you agree) but that the trumpet is not an amplifier. Saying something can amplify or make something increase in volume doesn't mean someone is calling it an "amplifier" in the technical definition of the word.
This is what doesn't need a lot of discussion, I think most people realize these facts. |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| trompette229 wrote: | | Probably just a misunderstanding, I'm not one of the folks saying the trumpet is an amplifier. |
Oops! I apologize! |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I believe the point is that the trumpet can amplify the sound (which it sounds like you agree) |
Amplify WHAT sound? The sound of the mouthpiece "buzz"?
If the mouthpiece is an integral part of THE instrument, then what is being amplified?
If I remove THE instrument from my lips, then there is no "buzz". And certainly, no sound that sounds like a soft and "unamplified" trumpet tone. So, what "sound" is being "amplified"? |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | I believe the point is that the trumpet can amplify the sound (which it sounds like you agree) |
Amplify WHAT sound? The sound of the mouthpiece "buzz"?
If the mouthpiece is an integral part of THE instrument, then what is being amplified?
If I remove THE instrument from my lips, then there is no "buzz". And certainly, no sound that sounds like a soft and "unamplified" trumpet tone. So, what "sound" is being "amplified"? |
Pertinacity, thy name is "kalijah". 
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lipshurt
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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If you look up “resonator” the first thing it says is that a resonator is a “natural amplifier”. That to me means that it’s an amplifier of some sort.
Examples cited include the body of a cello which is a resonator and natural amplifier of the strings.
The resonators on a marimba are natural amplifiers of the bars.
The resonator on an old acoustic record player is a natural amplifier of the the needle.
If you take an earbud and wedge it into the throat of a tuba mouthpiece it’s actually quite loud what comes out the tuba bell. It’s greatly amplified and with quite good fidelity. Sound is very good, and loud. Amplified.
So, why is this complicated?
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Don Herman rev2
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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It's not complicated but explaining further is obviously pointless. Nevertheless...
A resonator is not an amplifier. An amplifier may include a resonator, however. A resonator is a passive device with no way to add energy (amplify) by itself. It can, however, focus the energy at a particular frequency, in a particular direction, or whatever.
But obviously decades of engineering and physics cannot compete with entrenched inaccuracies, in trumpet playing or audio. Nor inaccurate definitions and all that jazz. Wonder what gets redefined next. I think life would be easier if pi were just 3 and not irrational.
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