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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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 Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I disagree. The mouthpiece alone offers no resistance. |
If I block the end of the mouthpiece with my fingertip there is near infinite resistance for the range of air pressures one can achieve.
I don't see how knowing the air pressure adds much benefit to the exercise.
You can track your achieved pressure with any reasonable gauge. The mouth-only pressure one can generate is more than lung-exhalation pressure.
Of course, Larry, (and others) think that the tongue can increase the air pressure to be more than the lung air pressure WHILE playing from lung air pressure. Which, of course, it can't. |
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ProAm
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Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 949
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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You say that you are a college-level player -- are you that age, too? Or an older person who once played in college?
You say that you currently practice 2 hrs per week - how is that distributed? 30 mins, 4 times per week? 20 mins 6 times per week? Is that 2 hrs in addition to other playing, like ensemble playing? Or 2 hrs playing a week total?
I don't think you need any particular "endurance system" yet -- you just need to play regularly and more frequently.
30 mins a day would be good for a start. Sure, Irons & Clarke & Arban are fine. If you can add a second, 30 min session, you should see a big jump in your endurance just from that. Play anything - I would suggest Arban The Art of Phrasing.
I may be all wrong here as you've given us little detail to go on. But the first key to endurance is simply playing EVERY day or as much and as often as it is possible for you. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3308
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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And don't get caught-up in that 'rest as much as you play' if you're only doing 30-45 minutes per day.
Really play for most of that time period - breaks only to dump water, flip pages, a few deep breaths, and then play again.
And you should strive for best full tone (full but not blasting) - clean attacks, good tone and loudness, and good continuity and phrasing. Play at a tempo that allows you to accomplish that.
It does little good to learn how to play poorly at a fast tempo.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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gwood66
Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 301
Location: South of Chicago
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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I would recommend working on exercises that improve efficiency.
The Clarke studies can help in that regard if practiced correctly. Lip bends and or pedal tones can help as well. There are two Dave Hickman books you could check out. One is on QPress, "Hickman Trumpet Lessons Volume 3 Embouchure Development, Power, Endurance, Upper-Register". The other is available on Mr. Hickman's website, "15 Advance Embouchure Studies".
Other helpful books would include Special Studies by John Daniel and Gordon's Systematic Approach to Daily Practice.
I will respectfully disagree with the notion that you shouldn't rest as much as you play. That is always advisable. If you have 45 minutes to an hour to practice, make sure you are adequately resting between between lines/exercises. Take a short 5 minute break half way though. If you want to improve your coordination/endurance, do not practice on tired lips or to the point of exhaustion unless it is planned. An example would be what Zaferis eluded to with practicing Sousa marches. They are a good test.
My 2 cents. It is what worked for me. You mileage may vary.
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Shaft
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 985
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Through the grapevine…
Don Jacoby played every day of the year.
Doc Severinson was on the horn over 10 hrs a day.
How good do you want to be?
How much does it take to really feel confident hitting your notes?
You build up endurance with time on the horn while doing correct technique.
Increase it but be smart about it.
2 hrs a week may as well be not at all. Nowhere near stage ready. |
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mafields627
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Joined: 09 Nov 2001
Posts: 3776
Location: AL
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:12 am Post subject: |
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I think the concept of tempo and dynamic change are very overlooked aspects of endurance building. I alternate between the Reinhardt Routines (available from Boptism Publishing) and the William Adam material off Greg Wing's website. When I rush through the material and don't follow the marked tempi, don't hold out fermatas, don't exagerate dynamic change, etc., I don't get a lot out of the practice. When I do those things I notice marked improvements in strength and endurance.
So, whatever material you practice, slow the tempos down, observe the dynamic changes, and put in consistent time over multiple days per week.
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--Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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Rapier232
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Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 1323
Location: Twixt the Moor and the Sea, UK
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | I disagree. The mouthpiece alone offers no resistance. |
If I block the end of the mouthpiece with my fingertip there is near infinite resistance for the range of air pressures one can achieve.
I don't see how knowing the air pressure adds much benefit to the exercise.
You can track your achieved pressure with any reasonable gauge. The mouth-only pressure one can generate is more than lung-exhalation pressure.
Of course, Larry, (and others) think that the tongue can increase the air pressure to be more than the lung air pressure WHILE playing from lung air pressure. Which, of course, it can't. |
_________________
"Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".
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Rapier232
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Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 1323
Location: Twixt the Moor and the Sea, UK
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | I disagree. The mouthpiece alone offers no resistance. |
If I block the end of the mouthpiece with my fingertip there is near infinite resistance for the range of air pressures one can achieve.
I don't see how knowing the air pressure adds much benefit to the exercise.
You can track your achieved pressure with any reasonable gauge. The mouth-only pressure one can generate is more than lung-exhalation pressure.
Of course, Larry, (and others) think that the tongue can increase the air pressure to be more than the lung air pressure WHILE playing from lung air pressure. Which, of course, it can't. |
But sticking your finger over the end of a mouthpiece is not the same. Typical naysayer, without actually using the device, so you only guess about how it works. You don’t have one, so to me your opinion is pretty useless. As is proved by your reference to the tongue, which is not a factor in the CTS.
_________________
"Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".
Smith-Watkins Bb
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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But sticking your finger over the end of a mouthpiece is not the same. |
If it is blocked-flow (which it is) it is exactly the same.
| Quote: | | Typical naysayer, without actually using the device, so you only guess about how it works. |
How it works is evident. It blocks the flow and registers the pressure. Which will be the same as the air pressure in the mouth.
| Quote: | | You don’t have one, so to me your opinion is pretty useless. |
It is not complicated. And quite evident what this thing does.
| Quote: | | As is proved by your reference to the tongue, which is not a factor in the CTS. |
That's not what Larry says. |
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Rapier232
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 1323
Location: Twixt the Moor and the Sea, UK
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Pointless continuing to talk to you. You think you know better than someone that actually uses the device most days. It works, you don’t accept that, fine. Your loss.
_________________
"Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".
Smith-Watkins Bb
Will Spencer Bb
Eclipse Flugel
Smith Watkins K2 Cornet
JP152 C Trumpet
Besson Bugle |
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LadFree
Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2022
Posts: 57
Location: NY
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 4:04 am Post subject: |
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I have found that practicing Arbans pages 22-36 all staccato and loud really
helps with endurance;Play them like your playing a parade; Pick about 6 a day..Pump air, keep corners firm and rest when you need to;
I do probably 20-30 minutes a day of these exercises and when I get on my gigs I without a doubt can play longer and stronger..Highly recommended!
Oh also, my wife marches around the livingroom when I play them,which always gives us a laugh! |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3308
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:00 am Post subject: |
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regarding the Larry Meregillano CTS (compression training system) - this site has some info from Meregillano and a video from him describing its use and function.
And no, I didn't see any specific mention of tongue usage, but he does say it applies to all muscles involved with embouchure.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/791083545033224/posts/1164068737734701/
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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chet_fan
Regular Member
Joined: 11 Sep 2023
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:27 am Post subject: |
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What I have found is that when I'm not using good airflow my endurance suffers. When I take nice deep breaths and blow through the horn I can play forever. If I don't I end up using too much pressure and my chops get worn out.
My .02. |
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abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1783
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| LadFree wrote: | I have found that practicing Arbans pages 22-36 all staccato and loud really
helps with endurance;Play them like your playing a parade; Pick about 6 a day..Pump air, keep corners firm and rest when you need to;
I do probably 20-30 minutes a day of these exercises and when I get on my gigs I without a doubt can play longer and stronger..Highly recommended!
Oh also, my wife marches around the livingroom when I play them,which always gives us a laugh! |
For the OP, this is good information for when you've ramped up to your 30 mins a day and it's feeling very comfortable.
Endurance athletes know that if they stick to zone 2 training all the time, they feel a little less dynamic and a little less powerful. The exercise above is something you can utilize to tax the chops more than you were in your easy continuous days and do so in a slightly different manner than you were. This will give you access to those moments when you need high power.
First, build the base, then incorporate this. Happy practicing. |
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Seymor B Fudd
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Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1474
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Some comments that might sound offensive. They are not ment to.
1)You normally practice 2 hours a week -. how on earth can you even think this is supposed to result in endurance????
2)You are not interested in new methods. How serious are you in pursuing anything coming close to a development?? Fiddling with the horn at home - then 2 hours a week might be enough. But anything beyond that?? Nope. Garbage in garbage out.
Seriously - you seem to be a reflective guy. Then think!
3)Any well thought upon method should suffice if you put down at least one hour a day if you want to develop, to begin with. And that in an orderly fashion with enough pauses.
When I was young I managed gigs 4x45 minutes, lead, practicing 45 minutes every day. To that band-rehearsals 5 hours a week.
Then you might "loose" yourself in hunting for the perfect mouthpiece, buzzing or not buzzing, Petes or whatever. Don´t. Structure!!! Energy!
But there´s nothing bad playing 2 hours a week as long as you do not expect miracles to happen. If you want to develop - go for it!!!
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LadFree
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Joined: 30 Jun 2022
Posts: 57
Location: NY
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Also..Something about the staccato hard attack and Loud practice does the trick..for me anyway. I dont only practice this way..In fact, my regimin is Caruso 6 notes 2 intervals and Harmonics..rest at least 20 minutes,move on to Clarke exercises rest a bit then onto the Arban as I described, and rest (go to gym etc) then the afternoon is etudes/ backing tracks/improv time;
Works for me..I know everybody has there own take but this regimin works for me. |
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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And no, I didn't see any specific mention of tongue usage, but he does say it applies to all muscles involved with embouchure. |
He has said specific things about tongue. That it, in his words, "compresses the air forward".
The tongue is primary in creating air pressure for the oral space "squeeze". Which in a blocked-flow configuration can be held for a long period. But tongue movement adds no additional "compression" (pressure) to the air when playing from lung exhalation.
He erroneously believes it does (as many do). |
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Blackquill
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Joined: 03 May 2018
Posts: 74
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:41 pm Post subject: More info |
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Ah, I haven't said anything for a while. I just checked today and missed out on a lot of discussion. I appreciate all the attempts to help.a
| stuartissimo wrote: |
Same goes for this comment. It's possible the OP has PERFECT efficiency. But they can't know until they run into a training plateau. Time on the horn is the most important thing at the moment. |
The truth is, I have terrible efficiency. It's the real reason for me endurance woes, not just inadequate practice time. I'm not looking for endurance like the pros have. I just want the endurance that the other amateurs have. I don't even have that. (but my playing in general is better than most amateurs, initial attacks aside). I took lessons in college, but they never seemed to know why my air wasn’t solid, and so they only treated the symptoms rather than solving the root problem. I’m a college level player (played in the top ensembles in college) when it comes to tone and musicality, but I struggle with attacks a lot (coordination issue), supple air, and tiring out very quickly. Well, my rate of getting a decent attack is probably like 95%, but anything less than 99.9%
is unacceptable. For "perfect" attacks the rate is probably more like 80%... not good. Again, this needs to be 99+%. But if it's a BAD day, then my playing is SO bad that it's like a 25% chance of getting a decent attack... in the practice room, that is. I haven't come across such a bad situation in a rehearsal or performance, thankfullly. I do wonder why my WORST days seem to happen only in the practice room....
It would take ages to explain everything that has gone on, but I will say this: there’s no question there’s a link between my air issues and my coordination issues. I often wonder whether the solution is to work on coordination to improve my air, OR if it’s the opposite…. if I need to improve my air which will automatically make it easier to coordinate my playing. Which one would you say is the more likely solution? (so I can more easily seek the appropriate teacher) Keep in mind I have Aspergers… the symptoms vary from person to person, but for me, I am handicapped in the coordination of the body. I struggle with playing sports or doing workouts correctly or even doing dance moves (Keep in mind I’m well-coordinated after the initial attack when playing a phrase on trumpet… that’s because focusing on the music allows your body to coordinate things automatically) Not just that… I have a pectus excavatum that limits air capacity, and it’s possible that it constricts my air considerably in both thickness and speed. So yeah, I’m not sure what kind of help I will need to diagnose the problem. Any ideas on diagnosing the issue would be appreciated. Is there a particular kind of teacher I should seek?
Anyway, as for my practice regimen… I switched to Clarke exercises, played very softly, for 90% of my practice sessions. I lasted five days before my air stopped working… (when my chops get overworked over the course of a few days, my chops don’t feel tired… it’s just that the airflow gets really, really bad and I can’t even slur a scale smoothly, and it’s really hard to even do a basic air attack) That’s better than two days of previous practice regimens that involve harder playing. Perhaps if I take a day off playing every four days of Clarke practicing, I will be able to build my endurance. In fact, that will be my plan between now and my first rehearsal in January
Yes, my situation is so bad that practicing trumpet normally seems to only wear me down rather than increasing my endurance… despite resting a lot during practice sessions. My best days of playing are always when I haven’t played for a few days. Fresh chops = my air is a lot more responsive. If I could just be able to play like that every day I would be able to practice more and have considerably better technique. But alas… I'll just practice a lot of Clarke exercises for now and hope to seem some improvement by mid-January.
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kalijah
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Fresh chops = my air is a lot more responsive |
This statement is key. Your actual "air" is likely not the issue. Replace in your statement "the tone" instead of "the air" and it makes sense. The "chops " are likely the challenge. |
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Mike Prestage
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