Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:16 am Post subject: Relaxed high notes and pressure
Adam Rapa has preached being relaxed when playing high notes and squeezing your shoulder blades together to open up the chest. I tried this yesterday and had to use A LOT more air pressure to get up to those high notes (double f for me). Afterward I had such a bad headache I thought I had a fever (i did not, after some water and sleep I was fine). Any help on what's going wrong? _________________ An indescribable passion, everyone's yearning to create music (yamaha 8335 II rkg)
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Relaxed high notes and pressure
ramado24@clarkston.k12.mi wrote:
... being relaxed when playing high notes and squeezing your shoulder blades together to open up the chest. ...
---------------
improper squeezing, and not enough relaxing
What physical body position action is he / you trying to achieve by squeezing the shoulder blades together?
Are you trying to squeeze 'together and up' or 'together and down'? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
it's a together and down movement to create "openness" in the chest (whatever that means). Then as relaxed as possible, to just hit the notes. Not working to well for me right now. Mabee for a little then I just close up and have to use a lot of pressure. _________________ An indescribable passion, everyone's yearning to create music (yamaha 8335 II rkg)
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:19 pm Post subject:
ramado24@clarkston.k12.mi wrote:
it's a together and down movement to create "openness" in the chest (whatever that means). Then as relaxed as possible, to just hit the notes. ...
----------------------------------------------
Maybe you're over-doing the 'relaxed as possible' bit.
Sure, relax the shoulder blade action, but retain complete control of throat and embouchure, and don't allow the relaxing to reduce the quantity of your interior air. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
In the spirit of being relaxed, here's something I've been trying recently:
When playing, make sure my eyebrows and forehead look the same as if I'm not playing. It certainly changes my approach and requires more effective use of air. _________________ Trumpet player in Couch
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Adam's a super player but I'm not blown away by his tutelage on this point. I believe he happens to have chops that are cooperative - he can only describe what happens with *his* physiognomy. He can set his lips a certain way and make certain things happen - someone else won't be able to.
I know from firsthand experience that the configuration of your physical tools makes a difference. Reshaping my teeth made a huge difference in what I was able to do - i.e. I've got different chops than I used to have. Trying various approaches and endless hours of practice and trumpet calisthenics didn't help, changing my teeth did. I'm certain that the shape of one's lips makes a difference as well.
And nobody alive including Adam plays loud high notes without a significant amount of grunt.
IMO in the video below what he has to say isn't particularly useful - I'd be curious how many of the kids there with him were ultimately able to do anything with it - that's the part you never see with any of these clinic videos.
Adam if you're seeing this just calling it like I see it.
I've never seen a Maynard clinic video I thought was useful beyond his message of "blow a lot".
In the spirit of being relaxed, here's something I've been trying recently:
When playing, make sure my eyebrows and forehead look the same as if I'm not playing. It certainly changes my approach and requires more effective use of air.
Why?
Go to the 4 minute mark here, you can see a closeup of Doc swinging for the fences on the finale of "Celebration Suite" ending on a big high B that briefly breaks to a double C#. His eyebrows and forehead certainly don't look relaxed - that's how he typically looked when going high and loud.
Adam if you're seeing this just calling it like I see it.
I agree.
Paying attention to certain actions in the mouth may help you achieve the lip posture changes OR one may notice the movements of the tongue etc. and not attribute ANY cause or credit to the lip state (and how it changes) as it relates to pitch.
There is endless re-packaging of this type of cause-effect that gives the lips no credit for pitch control and makes absurd claims of how the tongue or "oral resonance" or "air speed" over the tongue DIRECTLY controls the pitch.
It's just instructional metaphor, it's not literal.
And many believe it literally because there is a high note attached.
But how dare you give the lips credit! That is just heretical.
When playing, make sure my eyebrows and forehead look the same as if I'm not playing. It certainly changes my approach and requires more effective use of air.
Tension and nervousness make themselves felt in muscle contractions. Consciously relaxing those muscles (legs and feet for me) releases tension - for me. When playing double Bs, I assume one brings more facial muscles into play. I wouldn't know, as I top out around high F. I think few players can play an effortless triple C as does Rashawn Ross:
When playing, make sure my eyebrows and forehead look the same as if I'm not playing. It certainly changes my approach and requires more effective use of air.
Tension and nervousness make themselves felt in muscle contractions. Consciously relaxing those muscles (legs and feet for me) releases tension - for me. When playing double Bs, I assume one brings more facial muscles into play. I wouldn't know, as I top out around high F. I think few players can play an effortless triple C as does Rashawn Ross:
Fun but fill in that gap between his upper incisors betcha those triples disappear. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2023 2:52 am Post subject:
"And nobody alive including Adam plays loud high notes without a significant amount of grunt."
I'm not completely sure what this means. I could be wrong but it looks to me from watching him that he has total control to the point it's next to effortless for him. He has to be extremely efficient to do what he does. If what he explains there gives the students- or even one student- an idea to try and work on, that seems like a positive to me.
Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Relaxed high notes and pressure
JayKosta wrote:
ramado24@clarkston.k12.mi wrote:
... being relaxed when playing high notes and squeezing your shoulder blades together to open up the chest. ...
improper squeezing, and not enough relaxing
Basically this. It's not really squeezing the shoulder blades it's more making sure we aren't squeezing the pecs, biceps, and hands. We tend to do that when "making an effort" (squeezing inward). He's having you think about bringing everything back to it's "just standing there with your hands up" state.
Rhondo wrote:
Robert P wrote:
And nobody alive including Adam plays loud high notes without a significant amount of grunt."
I'm not completely sure what this means. I could be wrong but it looks to me from watching him that he has total control to the point it's next to effortless for him.
I agree with Rhondo here. Adam can in fact play a high G with as much effort as most make on top-of-the-staff G. Robert P, where in the range does "grunt" begin? It's just not really a methodical/sensical way of imagining the trumpet range (from no grunt to lots of grunt). But maybe you can shed light on it?
Diclaimer: I am in no way saying that what Adam Rapa says is fully accurate, I'm just talking about specific points that were made here.
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Relaxed high notes and pressure
abontrumpet wrote:
Rhondo wrote:
Robert P wrote:
And nobody alive including Adam plays loud high notes without a significant amount of grunt."
I'm not completely sure what this means. I could be wrong but it looks to me from watching him that he has total control to the point it's next to effortless for him.
I agree with Rhondo here. Adam can in fact play a high G with as much effort as most make on top-of-the-staff G. Robert P, where in the range does "grunt" begin? It's just not really a methodical/sensical way of imagining the trumpet range (from no grunt to lots of grunt). But maybe you can shed light on it?
"Grunt" - utilizing much effort.
Adam can in fact play a high G with as much effort as most make on top-of-the-staff G.
You know this how? How did you measure the effort Adam was expending vs. a sampling of "most" players?
Watch this performance where he has to be heard over an ensemble when he plays loud high notes - he sounds fantastic, it doesn't look effortless to me, looks to me like he's expending quite a bit of effort - i.e. "Grunt".
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Relaxed high notes and pressure
Robert P wrote:
Watch this performance where he has to be heard over an ensemble when he plays loud high notes - he sounds fantastic, it doesn't look effortless to me, looks to me like he's expending quite a bit of effort - i.e. "Grunt".
You know this how? How did you measure the effort Adam was expending?
I know it's a little petty but I couldn't help myself, haha. Anyway, "grunt" is a word I do not have in the positive group of words in my trumpet lexicon. My evidence is anecdotal as is yours. I've seen middle schoolers try with all their might to get a top-of-the-staff G and Rapa plays a High-G with relative ease. I've seen him do it in person without making faces or turning red. That's all I have to go on. But it's my opinion rather than fact. Just my observation. Apologies if I came off strong saying "can in fact..." I realize it is not a fact.
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Relaxed high notes and pressure
abontrumpet wrote:
Robert P wrote:
Watch this performance where he has to be heard over an ensemble when he plays loud high notes - he sounds fantastic, it doesn't look effortless to me, looks to me like he's expending quite a bit of effort - i.e. "Grunt".
You know this how? How did you measure the effort Adam was expending?
I know it's a little petty but I couldn't help myself, haha. Anyway, "grunt" is a word I do not have in the positive group of words in my trumpet lexicon. My evidence is anecdotal as is yours. I've seen middle schoolers try with all their might to get a top-of-the-staff G and Rapa plays a High-G with relative ease. I've seen him do it in person without making faces or turning red. That's all I have to go on. But it's my opinion rather than fact. Just my observation. Apologies if I came off strong saying "can in fact..." I realize it is not a fact.
How I surmise this is because of observation and personal experience - I can play top-of-staff Gs as well as both softer and paint-peeling high Gs and don't believe physics changes for Adam. I don't think kids who haven't gotten any kind of handle on things yet are a good comparison point.
Hero-worship is fine but it shouldn't get in the way of valid pedagogical points. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Don't want to get into a big thing over it but making statements like so and so plays high Gs as easily as most play top of staff G strikes me as being in that realm. Adam's a great player, he's still bound by the same physics as everyone else. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Don't want to get into a big thing over it but making statements like so and so plays high Gs as easily as most play top of staff G strikes me as being in that realm. Adam's a great player, he's still bound by the same physics as everyone else.
I do not prefer Adam's playing and do not actively listen to him. Not a hero of mine whatsoever. But he's got a great handle on the trumpet.
Robert P wrote:
I don't think kids who haven't gotten any kind of handle on things yet are a good comparison point.
Unfortunately they are part of the "most" that I am referring to. Apologies if I was unclear (all trumpeters good and bad).
I am not an expert in physics, but you are probably correct in that if you were to take all variables away, High G would take more energy than top of the staff G for the same volume. But a lot of players really struggle and make their top-staff G very effortful.
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