tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3380
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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 Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Author
Dave Converse
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 05, 2003
Posts: 128
From: Nashville, Tn.
Posted: 2003-05-05 20:53
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Or subtitled: "Top Lip Compression II"
Yesterday, I noticed that virtually all of the mpc. pressure was falling on the top lip, causing (I think) a lack of top lip's ability to compress with the top of the tongue. To compensate, I pushed the bottom lip forward (with the tongue tip) enough to bear at least 1/2 of the weight of the rim. This created a very stiff tongue, and the top lip felt freer to come down into the tongue While the tongue was in wedge position, the sensation was that it was vertical in front of the teeth. The sides of the tongue were pushing forward right behind the corners and I could feel both lips compressing into the forward tongue. Articulations were made approximately 1" back on the tongue and top teeth edge, as Callet's description states.
Now...........................have I finally gotten it? Is the tongue supposed to be that far forward and stiff? Sure seemed to "connect the dots" for me. But I'm a really big boy and I can take it if I'm still getting it wrong. Waddaya think? Dave
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tptguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-05-06 22:49
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Dave,
<<I pushed the bottom lip forward (with the tongue tip) enough to bear at least 1/2 of the weight of the rim. >>
Are you holding/pushing the lower lip out and continuously pushing against the lower rim of the mouthpiece with your tongue? - Kyle
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Dave Converse
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 05, 2003
Posts: 128
From: Nashville, Tn.
Posted: 2003-05-07 05:29
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Thanks Kyle. Yes.............pushing continuously, trying to minimize top lip pressure. I'not not really pushing with the lip, but pushing the lip AND rim with the tongue. Back in the "old" days, prior to SC, I would have to make sure that the jaw (bottom lip and teeth) took the majority of the weight off the top, or endurance suffered. Even used to play with a bent shank mpc, for this purpose.
There is less pushing in the in the middle of the staff, but more as I ascend OR descend, especially below low C. Low register is more powerful and consistent. Still must develop upper register top lip strength, but I was hoping this discovery would free up the top lip some rather than pinning it down with the rim. Dave
[ This Message was edited by: Dave Converse on 2003-05-07 05:31 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Dave Converse on 2003-05-07 05:33 ]
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tptguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-05-07 22:54
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Dave, You are surely correct in that you cannot pin down the upper lip and still succeed. It is quite alright to push a bit with the tongue against the lower lip/mouthpiece in order to get going in a better direction. Longer term, it's not really a push. The lower lip must curl out just enough so you are playing off the soft inner red. But, the tongue is not actually pressing out. It's the bunching of the lips, top and bottom, as well as the movement forward of the corners that is balancing against the mouthpiece pressure. Hope this helps. Best regards, Kyle
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Dave Converse
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 05, 2003
Posts: 128
From: Nashville, Tn.
Posted: 2003-05-08 18:36
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Kyle, I know this is kinda tough, but, can you describe your tongue position at around G3? I mean the section of tongue from teeth edge forward. Wide or thick (I can't do both)? Sides of tongue behind corners? How much downward angle? I guess i'm wondering if I'm trying to get TOO much tongue up front. I realize we aren't all built the same or do exactly the same things, but I am under the impression we should all be GENERALLY the same for TCE. Really appreciate your dedication to us novices. man. Dave
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oj
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 07, 2003
Posts: 165
From: Norway
Posted: 2003-05-09 04:01
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Kyle,
You are really a teacher in cyber space!
You said: "The lower lip must curl out just enough so you are playing off the soft inner red."
I kind of knew this, but you made me finally realise it in a new way, kind of an AHA for me
When we do the double pedals like Callet discovered in 1970, we get the penetrating and strong sound, that Smiley call "the lawn mover sound". We can play a very, very long note with this setup.
Why can we play so strong and long "down there"?
We are using a very effectiv aperture - not too open (as often with regular pedals). And like Kyle says, "lower lip must curl". The corners also come in when doing this.
What I experienced with the Roll-Out exercises in B.E. especially Roll-Out #3, was that you could bring this feeling into the normal register. (#3 is slurs from double pedal C to low C , etc. up as far as you can go.)
B.E.'s idea is to do these exercises ("motion packets") and over time a new and more effective and "balanced embouchure" will develop.
I knew this, but after so many years of playing it takes time to develop new movements. The post from Kyle made me understand this better. Now, I don't have to do double pedals to "remember" this setup, I can just do as Kyle say and I'm "playing off the soft inner red". What a different it makes!
Thanks, Kyle
- you are perhaps the person on TH that I learn most from!
Ole
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Lex Grantham
Veteran Member
Joined: Nov 13, 2001
Posts: 341
From: East Texas
Posted: 2003-05-09 11:10
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OJ:
I know Kyle personally, and he certainly does take the time to help others with their SC, TCE concerns. And it seems that even though players ask him the same questions again and again, Kyle is still VERY happy to assist.
Thanks, Kyle...from me, too.
Sincerely,
Lex Grantham
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tptguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-05-09 20:33
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Guys, Thanks for the nice comments. I struggled so long and so hard to develop decent chops. I don't want others to go through the same frustrations that I did. So, I'm glad to lend others a helping hand as best I can. I'm very glad to hear that some of my comments are helping others.
<<can you describe your tongue position at around G3? I mean the section of tongue from teeth edge forward. Wide or thick (I can't do both)?>>
Tip is just behind top of lower lip, just enough pressure against lower lip to get it to curl out so I'm playing off the soft inner red. As I go higher the tongue thickens side to side, but the tip does not push further forward.
<<Sides of tongue behind corners?>>
Yes, behind. But perhaps, not quite that wide.
<<How much downward angle?>>
Not a ton. You want a wedge in the tongue not a downward slope.
<<I guess i'm wondering if I'm trying to get TOO much tongue up front.>>
If the tongue is "wedged" then you can't too much tongue up front. But, if the tongue is flat then you can get too forward. Make sure you are articulating with the top of the tongue off the top lip.
Best regards, Kyle
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Jerry Freedman
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 243
From: Burlington, Massachusetts
Posted: 2003-05-10 06:16
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[quote]
Tip is just behind top of lower lip, just enough pressure against lower lip to get it to curl out so I'm playing off the soft inner red. As I go higher the tongue thickens side to side, but the tip does not push further forward.
<<Sides of tongue behind corners?>>
Yes, behind. But perhaps, not quite that wide.
<<How much downward angle?>>
Not a ton. You want a wedge in the tongue not a downward slope.
<<I guess i'm wondering if I'm trying to get TOO much tongue up front.>>
If the tongue is "wedged" then you can't too much tongue up front. But, if the tongue is flat then you can get too forward. Make sure you are articulating with the top of the tongue off the top lip.
Can you explain why you can't tongue too much up front if the tongue is wedged. Maybe I am misunderstanding the "wedged" part.
J. Freednab
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tptguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-05-10 18:03
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With a "wedge", the top of the tongue is notably higher than the tip of the tongue as both go through the teeth. In this position, if you try to push the tongue more forward it just gets thicker and wider. That's all good. On the other hand, if you can keep going forward with it then your tongue is too flat, i.e. you don't really have a wedge. - Kyle
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Jerry Freedman
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 243
From: Burlington, Massachusetts
Posted: 2003-05-10 20:42
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Quote:
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On 2003-05-10 18:03, tptguy wrote:
With a "wedge", the top of the tongue is notably higher than the tip of the tongue as both go through the teeth. In this position, if you try to push the tongue more forward it just gets thicker and wider. That's all good. On the other hand, if you can keep going forward with it then your tongue is too flat, i.e. you don't really have a wedge. - Kyle
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Okay -- might be having a moment. With the tongue in this position to ascend the tongue thickens? When I try this I can keep pushing my tongue forward ( without the horn) but it gets so thick it looks like I am spittling out a large pink slug
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tptguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-05-12 19:01
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Jerry, I do mean with the horn on your face you can't keep going forward. But yes, I would think that without the horn your description is accurate. Best regards, Kyle |
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