Advise on professional c trumpet

Joost · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 4:39 am Post subject: Advise on professional c trumpet

Hello everyone,

Since a while, I am looking to replace my c trumpet. At the moment I play a Yamaha Chicago gen II. What bothers me in this trumpet is the sound. To me, the sound is too bright, not enough core and it lacks colour. Also, the trumpet is not as in tune as the other Chicago's I played (the low c is very sharp and the middle g is very flat).
Ideally, I am looking for a trumpet that has more colour in the sound than the one I own now, plays as easy a a Yamaha, and is as in tune as a Yamaha.
The trumpets that interest me right now are a Bach with a Malone leadpipe, a Bach Philadelphia, or a Spada/Lechner.
What I want to keep in account is the ability to blend in sections. Most players in the Netherlands play a Yamaha Chicago gen I.

Thank you in advance for the replies!
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etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6210

Yamaha Chicago Gen III ?

RL · Veteran Member Joined: 06 Sep 2009 Posts: 163

Maybe try out other Yamaha chicago's (as you already did before).
The gen 1 has a warm sound and a good intonation imho.

Dayton · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:47 am Post subject:

I haven't played a Bach with a Malone leadpipe or a Spada, but I liked the Bach Philadelphia quite a bit. I found the Yamaha NY model to be easier to play than the Chicago model, and liked the sound better, so that would be another consideration.

Regarding your current horn, have you had a technician look it over? Things like adjusting the mouthpiece receiver or a valve alignment can help with some intonation issues. A loose brace can also cause problems. Just worth checking.

Good luck!

andybharms · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 7:03 am Post subject:

Don’t dismiss an off the shelf 229 25H!
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huntman10 · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 8:48 am Post subject:

Could be a mouthpiece issue. Try a few other cups, different orifices, check the gap, before diving in on the investment.
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abontrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1831

Ultimately, you're going to try before you buy.

You mentioned Bach/Malone. Some people do take a Yamaha Chicago pipe and tuning slide, and fit it for a bach, so that may be an option, perhaps?

I personally wouldn't consider a Bach Philly. The only pro (in the USA) that I know was using one (there may have been others) was Stuart Stephenson. I think he was using it with a modified leadpipe and now he plays a Yamaha. I just think the Philly isn't a properly "designed" horn, it is more a hodgepodge of ideas.

Someone mentioned the NY model Yamaha. With the YM bell it might provide a little more warmth to the ear and with a longer leadpipe, it will likely give you a more even scale than a 25H pipe.

btomcik · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 9:03 am Post subject:

Did you try a search of the forums first here on TH regarding a C?

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=163511
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=163380
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Louise Finch · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 9:56 am Post subject:

Louise Finch

a.kemp · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 3:29 pm Post subject:

Maybe try and get a Gen 1 or Gen III tuning slide for this horn.

The Gen II wasn’t as successful as the other two, largely because of the rounder tuning slide. Yamaha acknowledged that, and went back to the other crook with the III. They blow differently.

abontrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1831

Joost · Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 4:32 am Post subject:

Hello everyone,

Thanks a lot for the replies! I will try to give an answer on the comments, suggestions and questions.
Firstly, the different horns. I tried the Yamaha Chicago gen III; suberb intonation and playability, really mind blowing. However, the sound was not what I was looking for. Yes, more core and depth, but also more ring. I think I am a naturally bright player, which can give troubles with blending sometimes. So I am looking for a setup that counterbalances it a bit. The Gen I Chicago sounds more to my liking; the sound is a little darker. I might consider that if I am willing to give up a bit of the ease of playing that the newer generations offer. The Yamaha NY trumpets can be an option; I played a few notes on a gen I NY and liked it. Forgot why exactly though. Someone recommended me to contact the Yamaha atelier in Hamburg, which I might do so that my trumpet can be looked over and maybe even modified. A Bach 25H 229 can be an option, although untill now there's no Bach 229 that I played and liked. I played a few notes on a Bach 25A 239 and I liked it. However, intonation was maybe not the best.

Then mouthpieces. I play on a Breslmair setup. There is two reasons for that. First, I like the sound and the rim that I use. The cup is quite deep, I something like a Yamaha E cup or so. The backbore is something like a Bach 24 backbore, or that is what the Breslmair Scandinavia website said.
I have different cups and backbores and they didn't fix the intonation problems. Also, different people played my trumpet and had the same feeling about intonation. I do not want to go on a mouthpiece safari because the setup that I use right now is what I like a lot and I am used to. The second reason for using this piece is because the vast majority of orchestra players in the Netherlands use a similair setup. Using very different gear might cause problems in blending.

Lastly, the tuning slide. When I received the c trumpet, I tested it for two weeks. I found the sound quite bright, but my friend, who has a gen I Chicago, let me try his tuning slide on my trumpet. That gave a whole different sound and I decided to keep my c trumpet and get a gen I tuning slide to it. Unfortunately, the tuning slide that I bought didn't give the same results (it looks different from the tuning slide on my friends trumpet oddly enough). Also the slotting was too stiff in my opinion. I tried it for some periods, but always ended up frustrated because of the lack of flexibility with the more square tuning slide.

I think I covered the comments and suggestions now. Big thank to everybody that responded and I am very happy to receive more comments if you think there is something that I should consider!
_________________
Gear:
mp: Breslmair modular G-G2-L
Yamaha 8335RGS
Yamaha 9445CHS gen II
mp: Breslmair modular BB-C -P4-117
Scherzer rotary valve picc

Louise Finch · Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 5:28 am Post subject:

I'd suggest trialling a Chicago 1st generation in your usual playing setting, if this is possible, and seeing how it works for you. Also, have you tried the Xeno II C, which if the Xeno II Bb is to go on, has a lot of the features of the 1st generation Chicago and New Yorks? May be worth a try. My section colleague has a Xeno C (1st generation) and is very pleased with it, and doubles it with a Xeno Bb (also 1st generation).

I don't play much C, but I'm happy with mine, a Kanstul made F Besson Classic. I believe that it is based on the Bach 239 bell. I find that it has a good C trumpet sound, decent enough intonation and blends with my colleague, but there are only the two of us.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
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OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2489

If you are looking for the Yamaha feel, try a gen-1. There are many of us who feel that Yamaha went the wrong way with their "improvements" since. My experience of the gen-1 aligns with what you say you are seeking.
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Andy Cooper · Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:03 am Post subject:

If you do some searching, you will find discussions on mouthpiece gap issues with the Yamahas. A Yamaha mouthpiece shank may fit deeper in the receiver so other brands may give more gap than desired. Too much gap generally gives a brasher sound and some intonation problems.

https://stomvi-usa.com/learn-about-the-annulus-gap/

There is not really any way to test this unless you have Reeves sleeves or can try a Yamaha shanked mouthpiece. (Well, I guess you could try the "paper" trick. If things got worse you would at least know that you don't need more gap.)

RL · Veteran Member Joined: 06 Sep 2009 Posts: 163

You told that you've (shortly) tried the NY as well, I personally think that the NY models are a bit brighter in sound.

Louise Finch · Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2024 8:52 am Post subject:

abontrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1831

zaferis · Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2024 6:20 am Post subject:

I agree with the comment regarding mouthpiece choice. To dial in the tone and playability of what I want, I find the C trumpet (any make) mouthpiece design is crucial. (cup, throat, and flair)

With that said, I recommend a Bach C-the old war horse 239 or check out the C190SL229 .. You keep going back to comments about sound / tone.. there is nothing like the sound of a Bach especially noticeable "in the hall"

Either way - I think you have to try them in performance setting to really know - what they sound like in the store, or practice room doesn't give the complete picture.
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