Bach 184ML is a chameleon

[Louise Finch]

Hi

I decided to take my Bach 184ML cornet to my jazz band last night, which is a slightly smaller than big band set up, in which we play light jazz and American songbook classics, swing and latin.

I used to use this cornet as my primary horn, and I had forgotten how versatile it was. It sounded nice and cornet like for Misty, but it has plenty of power, in fact a huge dynamic range. This is a surprisingly powerful cornet.

I'm using a James R New modular top copy of the cup end of my favourite trumpet Bach 3C (a 2005 version that is larger in terms of cup diameter than a lot of Bach 1 1/2s), in a Kanstul modular mouthpiece system style blank, which has more mass at the bottom of the cup, combined with a Kanstul B10 backbore.

I'm using the same on trumpet, but instead a sleeved James R New backbore, which is Jim New's version of a standard Bach 10 backbore (Most likely it is the same as a Kanstul B10 trumpet backbore), with a James R New 6.5 sleeve.

My opinion of my Bach 184ML when I used to play it in concert bands, was that it was cornet like enough for traditional cornet solos, but plays like a warm, rich trumpet when pushed.

My opinion remained yesterday. I brought my Yamaha Neo to my jazz band once (along with my trumpet), and apart for playing a few ballads, it did not work at all. The sound was naturally too broad and cornet like, and I had to work hard to get sufficient brightness and core to the sound. This was not the case with the Bach 184ML.

I've often wondered what the Bach 181ML is like, as I feel that the Bach 184ML is the most trumpet like short model cornet that I've ever played.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Christian K. Peters]

Hello Lou,
I would imagine that the 181ML would be mouthpiece sensitive enough to sound more trumpety. The Schilke A1 I had, could be that way also. A friend of mine who played in Hawai'i for a number of years, told that one of the symphonie players there played an A1 for all the shows that came to Honolulu. I would think that the A2, which is also a long model would do the same. My point being, that American long model cornets, ended up by being compromising instruments, in their construction. Whereas the British short model instruments kept the original cornet features of the late 19th century.
On a coinciding note, the instruments and players on either side of the pond have a very different concept of sound, which may have had some bearing on a change of construction, through the 30's-50's, here in the states. Just a personal thought, as I have developed over the last 20 years, playing in a brass band here on the west coast.
_________________
Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

[huntman10]

Lou,

I begin to feel I know you from your posts.

I "made my bones" on a Strad 181 37 ML back in the 1960's. I traded it off for a Getzen 4 valve flugelhorn back in 1971, in my years of deluding myself that I could make a living on my limited musical prowess! But I loved that cornet so much, I still remember it was serial number 31580 (within the first few months of the move to Elkhart). My playing abilities never panned out but my horn trading and testing have been a pretty good "side hustle". As a result, I have owned and enjoyed a lot of cornets and trumpets, and have never been without a 181 Strad for more than a month since (with a penchant for the very earliest Elkhart or late Mt Vernons).

My current 181 serial number is in the 70,000's, making it "early Elkhart" by any definition. It is a bit brighter than some I have had (probably due to the apparent heavy buffing the bell got before I received it). I have held on to this for about 15 years, and treated it to a nice silver plating.

I play in a large municipal band of up to 100 players. For about 10 years, our band has played "Sleigh Ride" for our concert, and though I usually play 2nd trumpet stand (an all trumpet section, BTW), I have always played the trumpet lead on the arrangement. Although I usually rotate through several of my trumpets in band, I always pull out my 181 for that concert, and it will play right through the band. I usually use either my 1B Bach with Reeves 43.5 rim, or an old 1 1/2 C mouthpiece.

So my first point is, the 181ML has the same 37 bell as your 180, albeit with a longer lead pipe and shorter bell tail. Vincent Bach was a cornet soloist of some renown in Europe before emigrating to the US. I feel his goal in the development of his cornet (the 181 classification was part of the Selmer merger) was to create an instrument that could negotiate the highly technical solos of the time with grace, clarity, and great flexibility, while playing over a large band. A departure from the British cornets

I think my point is that my 181ML plays pretty close to your 180 ML 37. Perhaps with a bit of what Bach wrote of as a "compact tone", depending more or less on mouthpiece. I will say I have never liked short shanked big orifice mouthpieces like most Wicks in the 181's I had.

I have owned and played the model 184 and 184G ML (admittedly not in anything more that section playing with trumpets) and agree totally with your assessment of its character. So I suggest you might keep an eye out for the 181 25L or 181M31, both of which I have had brief "flings" with. The L bore has a wee bit of "beast" to its tone and projection, perhaps due to the fact that Bach created his large bore by simply using thinner wall (lighter) tubing. The M bore seems to have a bit of a vocal like "lilt" to its character (similar to the good old King brass bell Master models). I recently had an M bore Mt Vernon the local university jazz teachers just had to buy from me, BTW.

My tuppence worth!
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[Oncewasaplayer]

Hi, I have a 181ML (37 bell) and a Schilke A1. Both are mouthpiece sensitive. I have set them both up with mouthpieces in order to play traditional New Orleans jazz. That means I am encouraging a trumpety sound. Blow and you get some edge; back off and you'll find more cornet richness. If you keep the cornet sound dark and buttery, it is lost in a noisy band in a club. So adding some edge can be helpful, allowing you to to survive three hour gigs. (I'll note that trad players on the West Coast tend to play cornets and in New Orleans they tend to play trumpets.)

If I use the Curry BBB mouthpiece, I do get a nice, dark sound on both horns, perhaps more so on the A1 horn. Would that sound blend in a BBB? Not sure. Your mileage will vary.
_________________
Getzen 800DLX cornet
Selmer Sigma trumpet

[Louise Finch]

[Dale Proctor]

After all the Christmas trumpet playing was over, I’ve been practicing my Bach 184G with a Bach 10-1/2C mouthpiece lately (Oh, the humanity!). I’m shocked how easy it is to play with that mouthpiece. I played trumpet on a 10-1/2C back in the 1970s and early ‘80s before switching to larger sizes, so the mouthpiece is still somewhat familiar to me.

Ever with that smaller mouthpiece, there’s still a richness to the sound on the large bore 184G, but I can push it to the point where there’s an edge to it, too. The C cup on the 10-1/2C is fairly deep, so that’s a plus. I haven’t tried it with a group yet to determine if the intonation jives with the other players in the section, but if the roads aren’t too icy tomorrow, I may get my chance. As insurance, I’ll be bringing along my Bach 3, which is a known quantity.

EDIT: The intonation on the 184G was a little squirrley with the 10-1/2C today. I’m sure some of it can be attributed to the guy sitting next to me though… . Anyway, the combination is workable, but I’ll have to get a little more comfortable with it to use that setup, which is mainly suited to playing the cornet on trumpet parts in a mixed trumpet/cornet section.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[Louise Finch]

[Dale Proctor]

[Louise Finch]

[Dale Proctor]

[Louise Finch]

[kerouack]

Hello Lou,
Where can we see recordings of your band with you playing that cornet ?

[Louise Finch]