Typical insertion amount for a Bach Strad

[Louise Finch]

Hi

As part of my decisions regarding my Bach 37, I've gone back to my James R New 6 sleeve, as I didn't feel that the 6.5 sleeve was working well. The James R New 6 sleeve inserts 24mm in my Bach 37, the same as the 2005 Bach 3C (that I had scanned, and all my custom 3C tops are made from this scan) that I play tested this trumpet with in around 2008/2009.

I know that mouthpiece exit wall thickness comes into the full gap equation, but insertion amount will do for now.

I cannot measure my actual gap on this trumpet, as the leadpipe ledge appears to have been bevelled or filed flat. I've had a good look down the receiver and there is no ledge that you can measure rest a pencil point or sharp end of a dental harp on.

I haven't got many trumpet mouthpieces, a Yamaha 16C4 that inserts around 25mm in this trumpet, as does my 1994 Bach 7C and a James R New 6.5 sleeve. I have two Bach 3Cs (the one I mention above and another with the same lettering style), which both insert around 24mm like a James R New 6 sleeve.

I'm simply wondering what insertion amount others are using on a Bach Strad trumpet. I know that it is personal and all that (and I suppose could vary from Bach trumpet to Bach trumpet), but I would still like to know what other people are using.

I'd be particularly interested in how far other people's Bach mouthpieces insert, how far Curry mouthpiece insert, and how far Reeves 5 and 5.5 sleeves insert (I know that they are supposed to be the same, but I'm finding a James R New 6 sleeve rather than 5 or 5.5 to insert like my Bach 3C).

Many thanks

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[lipshurt]

Hello here are could things to think about:

When a receiver is made, if the diameter is cut one thousandth of an inch bigger or smaller, then the insertion will be changed by twenty thousandths. .001 of an inch is pretty picky. It’s likely to be be off by maybe .001 either way. On a Bach the leadpipe slides in to butt against a ledge in the receiver so it can’t be adjusted by unsoldering and moving it. That would make for a huge diameter change where the gap is. Not good. The ledge could be incorrectly located in the receiver but it’s much easier to get that correct. So the typical range could vary by .020 (which is a quarter size reeves sleeve numbers) and not that uncommon to vary by .050.

In addition to there being variation of the receiver diameter, there is of course variation in shank diameter. Lately I’ve been experimenting with making snacks that have “zero gap” meaning they touch the leadpipe. Even slight temperature change can make the shank loose. I actually like true zero gap a lot but it’s really problematic because it is so picky. I made shanks that were perfectly zero gap but when they came back from plating they were as much as .020 less in insertion. That would mean they were plated .001 of silver. Or at least at the end of the shank they were. In doing some more shanks like this and keeping track of insertion depth, it shows that silver plating can change it as liittle as .008 to as much as .020. So that is another place for variation.

The amount of leeway that “works” with gap is generally thought to be about .020 on either side of “optimal” which would cover most situations. But if you get on the edge of that you can start having weird results.

If you are like a 6.5 sleeve GENERALLY that means that in a Bach you getting a pretty small gap like .050 or less. Keep in mind your specific horn might be making a .125 gap with that sleeve (not likely but possible). A Yamaha with a 6.5 would be really close to the bottom. A number 7 might even hit bottom. In my 8310 a 7 is zero gap. at least THIS particular sleeve.

My guess is that if you are liking the 6.5 sleeve, that means that you are lining some aspect of small gap. But small gap has some artifact in the way works that makes things go awry at weird times. Usually during rehearsal or performance and not as much during practice. Small gap can really get nice resonance the notes can seem to lock in real good, except when they don’t. It’s less forgiving even though it can feel better. That is why i started experimenting with zero gap. Of course threaded shanks that thread in the leadpipe have been around and they work really good. Monette and Adams offer that. It makes it hard to switch around mouthpieces though because there has to a LOT of threads to make enough contact. Going to zero gap makes the resonance and sound and things much better, and the accuracy and security Come back when you get to under about .008 gap.

So you could be in a situation where it might be better to go to less insertion and a bigger gap (“normal .125 gap. To get your bearings. The feel of your sound might not be as resonant temporarily, but other things might be better….. but there is another big thing going on.

If your leadpipe is beveled that changes a LOT. The whole gap situation is different. On a Bach a beveled pipe is unusual. The pipe is flared out in about the last .050 or so to make the end of the pipe the same size as the diameter about 3/4 inches from the end, so that it doesn’t wobble in the straight sided hollowing of the back of the receiver. That flare i would not call a bevel. It is a Bevel but you should be able to feel a very definite ledge. If not it could be filled with a fillet of solder. I have seen a few beveled Bach, and the were number 7 pipes. That may correct for the number 7. I’ve also seeen pipes where one side is drastically different that the other. Off center by a lot. I’ve also seen pipes that were beveled afterwards with a tapered reamer. And that that works pretty good. I’ve done that for several people who heard about it and wanted to try it. It makes the horn more open and since the entrance wall thickness is so small it makes the gap situation not predictable. If yours is really beveled like with a modification. (Or maybe a number 7) that would mean that you can have a smaller gap than textbook. If you bevel the exit wall of you mouthpiece its even more different. Possible good. Several makers make their shanks that way. LOUD, some Schike etc. So you might try a beveled shank of one of your “experimentable” backbones.

The thing i would do however is to get to bottom of the beveled pipe situation. If ledge is masked by a circular puddle of solder, you can have that scraped out so you have a nice square edge there. In the conn patent where they basically patent the gap, the drawings show that the leadpipe has to be a clean and square ledge.

Sorry so long, but its raining here at Starbucks and I’m avoiding going out there:)
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[Louise Finch]

Thanks very much lipshurt, this is so really appreciated.

I’m about to start a rehearsal in 12 mins, so just a quick reply from my phone.

I’ve used the 6.5 sleeve successfully on my Yamaha Xeno II for 8 years. I also use a 6.5 sleeve on my Kanstul F Besson Classic C, Yamaha D and D/Eb and Boosey and Hawkes Oxford spare Bb.

There is no solder ring. Leigh at Eclipse replaced the leadpipe. I have no idea what it is. There is no rim of solder. It just looks like the ledge has been reamed off. My James R New backbores are bevelled on the end, as Jim New appears to do this. I therefore appear to have a bevelled backbore, maybe smaller than average gap, bearing in mind that these are James R New sleeves, and a 6 sleeve inserts like both my Bach 3Cs, and a leadpipe with no ledge.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Louise Finch]

Reply in bars rest.

Took both trumpets to symphony orchestra rehearsal. 1st trumpet so fair number of high B and high C entries following multiple bars rest. Therefore like a trumpet for symphony orchestra playing that has more secure slotting than I’d choose for jazz. James R New 6 sleeve plays well with sufficient resistance. Little more open blow than Yamaha Xeno II with James R New 6.5 sleeve, but not too open. I had no problem with accurate entries and slotting on the Bach 37, but Yamaha Xeno II better in this regard. Chose this trumpet originally for the old time dance band playing I was doing at the time. 1st trumpet but waltzes, fox trots, quick steps and latin rather than full on big band lead. Play tested Leigh’s selection of used Bachs on this type of repertoire, not classical.

Will keep Bach 37 for jazz band or spare. Xeno II good orchestral trumpet for me.
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Louise Finch]

Lent trumpet to orchestral colleague for second half. He played it with his mouthpiece. I said nothing. His opinion was that it plays well and he likes it, but feels more free blowing than his Xeno I and has less secure slotting. It was good to get a confirmation of my views.

I feel that my Xeno II is the better orchestral trumpet and I’m in all honesty very fond of it, so I’m going to stick with it. I think that my Bach 37 will stay as my spare.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Louise Finch]

James R New 6 sleeve inserts 24mm, like my two Bach 3Cs (one I new in 2005 and used one I bought at a later date with same lettering style).

James R New 6.5 inserts 25mm like a Yamaha mouthpiece.

I wonder whether James R New sleeves insert differently to Reeves sleeves.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[abontrumpet]

All of these don't really matter since you have such a strange venturi:

Rough measurements in a Bach Receiver.
Bach 1.5C: 22.5mm
Breslmair G2: 22mm
Custom Schilke: 22.5mm
Stomvi (basically Reeves) #5 sleeve: 22.5mm
GR: 22.3mm
Parke Backbore 1: 23.75mm
Parke Backbore 2: 23mm
Parke Backbore 3: 24mm
Parke Backbore 4: 23mm
Yamaha 17b4: 22.75mm

Measurements on very new Bach Receiver:
Bach 1.5C: 22.5
Breslmair G2: 22.5mm
Custom Schilke: 23mm
Stomvi #5 Sleeve: 23.5mm
GR: 23.75mm
Parke Backbore 1: 24mm
Parke Backbore 2: 24mm
Parke Backbore 3: 24mm
Parke Backbore 4: 23.5mm
Yamaha: 24mm

Measurements on Gen ii Yamaha:
Bach: 23.5mm
Breslmair: 23.5mm
Custom Schilke: 24mm
Stomvi #5: 24.75mm
Gr: 24.75mm
Parke 1: 25mm
Parke 2: 25mm
Yamaha: 25mm

Gen I Yamaha:
Bach: 23.5mm
Yamaha: 25mm
Sleeve #5: 24mm

I sold my #5.5 sleeve as I don't play with sleeves anymore (don't really like sleeves).

[Louise Finch]

[abontrumpet]

I've updated my measurements to include yamaha too.

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[JayKosta]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

I suppose the question now is how far do mouthpieces insert in other people's Bach receivers.

Since Bach shank dimensions are all over the place probably, and Yamaha more consistent, I think that it may be more useful to compare how far a Yamaha mouthpiece inserts in a Bach, for those who have a Bach trumpet and access to a Yamaha mouthpiece.

A Yamaha mouthpiece inserts 25mm in both my Bach 37 and Yamaha Xeno II. Maybe I have an unsual mouthpiece receiver and leadpipe, maybe an unusual mouthpiece receiver is the reason for the unusual top to the leadpipe.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[abontrumpet]

[Louise Finch]

[abontrumpet]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

Or are mouthpiece receivers generally replaced with leadpipes?

If not, as long as they don’t bottom out, isn’t mouthpiece insertion amount dependent on the mouthpiece receiver, and not the leadpipe?

Many thanks

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[abontrumpet]