Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:04 pm Post subject:
astadler wrote:
There are numerous documented cases of great players playing off to one side or another.
There are many reasons why someone’s range or endurance may be limited. Assuming that it’s related to playing off center is a leap that has no evidence to support it. If you have a good sound, don’t worry about it, but do check in with an expert to make sure that it’s not just a good sound “for your age” or “for your school,” and is actually a good sound with no apparent issues.
I'm always bothered by statements like the ones above. Pointing at a great player and saying that makes it fine doesn't make sense.
Normal facial muscles are paired side to side. If one is trying to use these muscles to their best, centering the mouthpiece makes more sense than allowing for deviance and trying to work muscles in an unbalanced state.
However, working around a damaged area could be a good reason to alter the position. So not all rules apply. _________________ Richard
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:41 pm Post subject:
Richard III wrote:
astadler wrote:
There are numerous documented cases of great players playing off to one side or another.
There are many reasons why someone’s range or endurance may be limited. Assuming that it’s related to playing off center is a leap that has no evidence to support it. If you have a good sound, don’t worry about it, but do check in with an expert to make sure that it’s not just a good sound “for your age” or “for your school,” and is actually a good sound with no apparent issues.
I'm always bothered by statements like the ones above. Pointing at a great player and saying that makes it fine doesn't make sense.
Normal facial muscles are paired side to side. If one is trying to use these muscles to their best, centering the mouthpiece makes more sense than allowing for deviance and trying to work muscles in an unbalanced state.
However, working around a damaged area could be a good reason to alter the position. So not all rules apply.
Exactly. If there is no physical reason then put it in the center. _________________ Bill Bergren
Joined: 11 Feb 2014 Posts: 130 Location: Little Rock, AR
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 5:40 pm Post subject:
Chances are if someone puts it to the side, it’s because that’s what felt most comfortable/natural to them, likely due to their dental makeup.
Even if that’s not the reason why, if they sound good, there is literally no reason to force an Embouchure change because it’s been shown that playing to one side or another does not prevent someone from playing at the highest levels. _________________ Andrew Stadler
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 9:02 pm Post subject:
Most beginners, through the natural process of trial and error, gravitate toward "what works" unless or until they're given wrong instruction by some teacher who is obsessed with what it looks like and whether it's in the center.
And here we are.
Nobody's face is symmetrical. The face you see in a mirror is not the same face that other people see.
Will not playing in the center of my mouth affect my playing? Or am I free to play to the side I play on the side of my mouth and my director hates it. Will it be a issue in the future?
We have different faces, teeth, jaws...and what works best for one player may not work best for another. You want your mouthpiece to be where you are most likely to be able to make/maintain a good embouchure. If that's a bit off-center, it isn't a big deal.
It is probably in the right place, or close to it, if you are getting a good sound and other aspects of your playing (range, endurance, articulation, etc.) are developing apace.
Why is your music director concerned about where your mouthpiece is positioned? Does he/she feel that something is "wrong" with your playing or is he/she simply remembering back to a college secondary brass instrumentals class that brass mouthpieces should be centered? If you are getting feedback that something is "wrong" with your actual playing then you should seek out a private lesson teacher to help you sort this out.
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 7:04 am Post subject:
Pretty much everyone has some off-center features to their mouthpiece placement and it's not always obvious what causes this.
No one is symmetrical. We all have dominant hands, feet, and eyes. Many people have a crooked smile. The shape of the musician's teeth and gums can influence a brass player's mouthpiece placement in unexpected ways. Everyone has a malocclusion of some sort and when the jaw is positioned for playing it never comes into place perfectly straight forward.
Personally, I actively discourage advising newer players to place their mouthpiece in the center. First, one lip or another should predominate and centered along the vertical won't allow this and leads to problems. Secondly, as long as they aren't given poor advise to place their mouthpiece like the teacher imagines to be "correct," I've found most players will naturally gravitate pretty close towards where their mouthpiece placement works best.
Sometimes I work with students who need to be encouraged to move their placement off-center because they've either been given poor advice or just assumed that centered was best. Personally, I don't advise a change of mouthpiece placement without being able to see and hear a positive change. Moving a student's mouthpiece placement with the belief that "the muscles will get used to the change and start working better eventually" never works as well as going for the placement that works with their anatomy.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Not playing in the center of my mouth
Billy B wrote:
Why are you not centering the mouthpiece?
_________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Sit down in a room, one on one, with an experienced trumpet teacher, and try playing patiently and methodically through a series of level-appropriate exercises to see if the OP can play scales, flexibility exercises, articulation exercises, and exercises to test dynamic control. Only after doing that have we done anything to establish that there is in fact a problem, and only after doing that would we be in any way equipped to suggest solutions. Full stop.
This is the actual answer to the OP's question.
What the examples of 'top players with bad embouchures' show is that horizontal placement of the mouthpiece is completely irrelevant to the ability to play the trumpet. People can argue all day about facial muscle pairment, muscle damage and whether things make sense, but the evidence is clear: it does not matter.
Should players make the effort to play off-center? No, not unless it helps them. Should players make the effort to play centered? Again, no unless it helps them.
The answer on whether the mouthpiece should be centered or not is that 'it depends on the player'. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
There are a good number of very successful players who play well off of centre. That doesn't mean you should, but it's certainly not objectively wrong.
I was trying to find a film clip of who I'm pretty sure is Anthony Hopkins blowing a field horn of some sort in a movie where he places it way off-center so I could include him in the list.
I'm probably unusual in that centering my placement helped improve my playing. The horn still tends to angle left a bit but the placement is dead-center. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3597 Location: New York
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 1:24 pm Post subject:
aside from the few who are completely demented people do what they do for a reason. it's hard to imagine any other motive for side mouthpiece placement other than it works well.
off center mouthpiece placement crops up a bit with females.
you may have already discovered that you're not going to please everybody in life.
aside from the few who are completely demented people do what they do for a reason.
I play a little to the right because the left side of my lower lip was rendered 30% numb after jaw surgery that was part of an orthodontic procedure. That's my reason.
Your sentence would be a little easier to interpret if you put a comma after "demented". _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
It's not that its universal, it's that it is the best principle.
Do you have any arguments to support your claim? Because just stating something without adressing or even acknowledging clear evidence to the contrary isn't very convincing. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
Doug, seriously man you're being petty. Of course not everything is exactly aligned, but GENERALLY in the center area is the best principle. I said you played their and you didnt deny it. Most play in the middle, most direct air flow, balance corners and muscles, and articulation. I've played professionally for 50 years and moving the mouthpiece to the middle of my my was the most fundamentally sound thing I've done for obvious reasons.
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 8:57 am Post subject:
Quote:
Doug, seriously man you're being petty.
I think you may be conflating more than one author? I don't see anyone being petty. Online communication can sometimes leave us with erroneous impressions.
Quote:
I said you played their and you didnt deny it.
I happen to know how Doug places his mouthpiece and it is off center.
I've played professionally for 50 years and moving the mouthpiece to the middle of my my was the most fundamentally sound thing I've done for obvious reasons.
About 25 years ago, when I was in my mid 20s in grad school studying trombone, I switched to placing my mouthpiece quite low on my lips and off to my left. That change led to significant improvements in my playing, but I certainly wouldn't recommend that placement to other players who clearly play better with a different placement. It fits me. Yours fits you.
Quote:
Of course not everything is exactly aligned, but GENERALLY in the center area is the best principle.
"Generally" placing in the center is more common, but not because it's the best principle, just that most players' anatomy means that they happen to play best with a "generally" centered mouthpiece placement. And by "centered" I mean on the east/west horizontal plane, not north/south. Centered so that its 50/50 upper and lower lip causes trouble. One lip or another must predominate.
Another reason why more players seem to place centered is because they were taught to play that way by well-intentioned teachers who don't allow their students to place off centered.
I happen to have hundreds of photographs of brass players' embouchures and a lot of video footage I've taken to document brass embouchures up close. I don't get the same impression that most players place centered as your hunch.
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:15 am Post subject:
I have also played professionally for 50 years, the first 10 or 15 "in the center" and occasionally drifting one way or the other. Then I discovered accientally that about 3/8" to the left gave me far better results over my whole range and centered the high range like never before. So I always test students to see where it truly works best.
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