To Unfurl, or Not to Unfurl??

[55Yr Comback]

I've been looking at & reading about various ways to form an embouchure. I've looked at those such as Lynn Nicholson & Larry Meregillano who I believe subscribe to the unfurled approach, & forming an aperture tunnel. Pops also talks about that. Then there are those who subscribe to a simpler "M" type embouchure. I realize we are all different. Different dental structure, facial features, etc, etc. Those out there that have been at this a long time, what are your thoughts on these two approaches? Thanks

[JayKosta]

thoughts ... I've got a ton of them, some might even be accurate and helpful

see - http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm

I lean towards the mmm idea, primarily because I think it is a good 'starting point', and because I don't think the usual 'visual ideas' about what a working lip aperture looks like are accurate or are helpful for actual playing. Plus the 'word descriptions' are open to a lot of misinterpretation, confusion, etc.

Exercises for producing various lip formations, aperture, etc. can be useful for training lip control, but I doubt that those positions need to be used directly for playing.

My 'fall back' mantra is that the lips need to be positioned so they are CAPABLE of vibrating at the desired pitch when air flows through them.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Richard III]

[55Yr Comback]

Ok, two different approaches. Jay, do you like the "M" approach because it's relaxed? Richard III, I'm thinking that you're embouchure is an unfurled or puckered embouchure? Does it help your range aside from endurance?

[steve0930]

Hi
A counter intuitive suggestion - To develop your embouchure should you switch off from thinking about /analysing it which could / (most probably would)prove counter productive?
Your best embouchure is the one you don't consciously make- rather let your intuitive self - (self 2 for readers of the Inner Game of Tennis) let happen / develop.
In his Balanced Embouchure method Jeff Smiley has exercises that focus on both Rolling your lips out and in - but does not give specific instructions on how to form the Embouchure - how could you when everyone's optimum set up is unique?
If we're lucky we might get a comment from Mr Smiley himself who, unlike me, does fulfil your criteria! ("Those out there that have been at this a long time")
Cheers Steve
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[55Yr Comback]

Thanks Steve

[Destructo]

The problem with this stuff is that it makes people thing their embouchure is static in some way. Like your lips are unfurled and don't really change at all. It doesn't really work that way, something has to compensate for it, so, for example, Lynn is an absolute powerhouse when it comes to blowing air.

The embouchure is usually a lot more dynamic than this. For example, Elmer Churampi is a really fantastic, virtuoso player who happens to post a lot of videos where you can really see his chops (handy that!).
Notice for Elmer, in the lower register, that lower lip unfurls, but for the middle register it comes back in, and as he goes into the upper register, his top lip actually adjusts:

Link


The point isn't so much *what* he's doing, but just the fact that you can't sum it up nice an neatly in a single word like "unfurled". The whole system is a "moving machine" as Claude Gordon used to say. There are a lot of variables all working together and you can't ever reduce it to one thing.

Each variable can contribute to differing extents. If one variable is at an extreme, then other variables have to really compensate or you'll run into an issue. You can skew the balance in all sorts of ways, lips rolled in, lips rolled out/unfurled, puckered or flattened against the teeth, amount of air, amount of air compression, tongue position, how open or closed the teeth are, how forward or backwards the jaw is, how wide or small the diameter of the mouthpiece, the resistance in the mouthpiece and instrument, the amount of mouthpiece pressure you apply and so on.

The tricky thing is that if you adjust one thing, the others have to adjust as well to keep things in balance for the task you're doing. (The balance is different for different registers and different volumes)

So here is my suggestion - if you want to find what works for you with any given variable in any given register, isolate it, and experiment with it in opposite directions.

For example, play nice solid low C and while holding the low C out, unfurl your lower lip (roll it out) and just notice what happens to your sound. Then, while still sustaining that low C, do the opposite, pull the lips in towards you and roll them in (but keep the low C going!).
Go backwards and forwards a few times, while keeping the sound as stable as you can.
What you'll find is that there is a range of [Rolled In - Rolled Out] where you can produce an acceptable sound. There should be a large margin for error for a low C. And then there are the extremes where the sound starts to disintergrate. Try to find somewhere between the extremes where the sound feels the easiestproduce. It's almost like you are relaxing into the sweet spot, rather than working for it.

As you go higher in your range, you will find that the margin for error tends to get smaller, and you will find that the position the lower lip (or any of the variables) is less forgiving. You might find that at a certain point in your range, that lower lip really needs to be a bit rolled in, or a bit rolled out.
That's what works for you. If it sounds right, and it feels like you're in some sort of balance, it's almost certainly in the right ballpark.

Just notice those things, but don't obsess over them, and don't spend too much of your practice time thinking about this stuff. Have some 'experiment' time built in, and then try to forget about it and focus on simply playing and letting things happen how they will. The experimenting gives your brain some valuable data, but then you have to get (conciously) out of the way, and let the brain work out how to apply it.

I actually have a book of exercises I made using the idea above that I use with students when they run into a problem. At some point I might even make it publically available as they really seem to help resolve issues by rebalancing things very quickly.

[abontrumpet]

[Destructo]

p.s. If you watch Lynn closely while he's playing you'll notice some things change as he ascends:

- His teeth start very open and the jaw/teeth closing is a significant part of why the pitch is changing.
- Mouthpiece Pressure and increases as he goes up.
- Air compression increases as he goes up. You can see he's working like the Beast he is (I mean that complimentarily) to energise the air as he goes up.
- The muscles around his lips are definitely doing stuff
- He increases the pucker some as he goes up.
- You can't see this one, but his tongue is helping to channel and contain the air to the part of hte lips in the mouthpiece cup. He calls it a "Tongue Channel" which is as good of a name as any.

So the "unfurl" is how he sets, but there is a lot of things going on beyond the unfurl.

[JayKosta]

[Wilktone]

Descriptions like "furled" or "unfurled" seem to be pretty subjective. Most players have never taken a close look at how the lips position and vibrate inside the cup and therefore end up relying on how it feels to them. The trouble with relying so closely on the feeling is that it frequently doesn't actually describe what's going on.

If a musician happens to have started off with lips that are too loose, for example, then the concept of positioning them as more "furled" can lead them towards the correct position. On the other hand, a player with lips that are too rolled in might find the concept of "unfurled" to be helpful. It depends on what the player is already doing and where he or she needs to go.

There's nothing wrong with an individual using their playing sensations to work towards efficient playing technique, but when teachers describe it to students that way it can miss the mark. There are objective descriptions of brass embouchure technique that I feel work much better than using playing sensations exclusively.

Dave
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wilktone.com

[Richard III]

[55Yr Comback]

All things to consider from the different postings. But Richard III, I can understand what you're saying that seems to work directly for you. The unfurling or puckering would also tend (I feel), to help with endurance do to providing a cushion where as you're not pinning your lips against your teeth. (Less mouthpiece pressure because of the cushion affect)? I have read about the aperture tunnel & all of that seems to make sense. I realize everyone's face structure & lips are different (thick, thin, etc) & I've got to experiment with it. But as a for instance Richard, for yourself, do you unfurl going as far as Lyn Nicholson, or the duck face or chimp face, or is it not as radical? Thanks

[JayKosta]

If watching videos, I suggest trying to really SEE what the player is DOING, and not so much the 'explanation'.

And especially look for the 'common things' that good players are doing. Personal quirks and adaptations might work and seem important to them, but it's the 'common things' that provide the basic foundation for the majority of good players.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Richard III]

[55Yr Comback]

Jay..That's exactly what I've been doing, that is looking at videos where the person not only explains how they form an embouchure, but show you. Some, will show you before they put the horn to their face. That approach (actually showing you before the mouthpiece goes up is very important to me. Richard III; saw the Lynn video, thanks. But I like what you yourself explained as far as what you do. I'm going to try that. Thanks. By the way guys, with your respective embouchures, when you put the horn (mouthpiece ) to your lips, do you stick your tongue through your lips to set your aperture & wet the lips; still keeping the mouthpiece in place? (Read Doc Severanson & Harry James did that). When I say that though, I don't mean set the aperture so you can drive a Mack truck though it. I mean just very very very slightly open the aperture so you can barley get a new flat dollar bill though it if I can explain it like that.

[Richard III]

[Destructo]

[55Yr Comback]

Ok. Looks to me like it's a matter of taking all approaches into consideration & seeing what works for the individual. I have discovered (& I read this by a few posters on this forum), that using just the mouthpiece might be a good way to see what the best placement is, & with that varied embouchure types from "M" to various stages of unfurling, puckers, etc to see what really works for the individual to get the cleanest sound & full range. And you're right, it is perhaps over analysis at this point; but those of you that have been playing many years & even professionally have found what works for you years ago, & have strong embouchures for good range & endurance. Me, coming back after so many years off, I have to find what works for me. But at least putting a box around things via your descriptions, gives me methods to try to see what will work for me. Hence the questions. Thanks.

[Billy B]